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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2011 : 09:16:28 [Permalink]
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Bob, I personally oppose the idea of international law and the ICC in its current form. Because it allows for prosecution based on laws that should not exist. Like British libel laws (those are getting better, but have some way to go) and laws in countries that outlaw blasphemy. If I start a website commenting on the douchebaggery of religion, I could potentially be arrested on my next European vacation and tried (or sent to Ireland for trial).
I realize that scenario is unlikely, but it is potentially possible the way international law currently works. As far as I understand it anyway. I don't want to ever face criminal charges for something that isn't a crime in my country. Things need to change on that front before most people in the US are going to get on board with the idea.
As for the rest, I basically agree with you. The killing of OBL was entirely extra judicial. The way I read the events of that night though, makes me think they would have arrested him had they not been fired upon initially. Once they took gunfire, everyone not in the surrender position was considered armed.
And as for Pakistan's sovereignty, I'm not going to be sympathetic. They were telling us lies for years, protecting a fugitive that they could have handed over with ease. That kind of duplicity is enough to send the entire Pakistani military and government leadership to prison by western laws. Obstruction of justice, material aid to a wanted felon, and so on.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2011 : 09:37:47 [Permalink]
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Marfknox, the evidence about obl and 9-11 has always been pretty scanty. The plot was carried out by Saudis and planned and executed from Germany. Certainly obl claimed both involvement and almost certainly had a hand in financing it but he himself was trained by the CIA and the ISI and there hasn't ever been evidence produced implicating him personally.
The details of the US state involvement in the jihadi activity of OBL against the Russians in Afghanistan, and also the collaboration between the US and the Taliban were detailed by John Cooley in his book Unholy Wars. There's no doubt that OBL had a great deal of information about the collaboration with the CIA during those times when he was considered an asset by the US state, as well as a great deal of embarrassing detail about the US role in Bosnia.
The story about how he was killed has already unravelled. Initially it was claimed that there was a forty minute fire-fight, that he resisted capture, that a helicopter was destroyed, etc. Now it seems he was surprised in a doorway, unarmed and was executed. The helicopter suffered technical failure and was destroyed by the seals themselves and it wasn't under attack. Only one person fired back in the compound against an estimated eighty seals. Absolutely no problem capturing him and bringing him to trial.
One reason for not wanting him in the dock is that he would be able to testify. His closeness to the CIA and the US administration would be a sustained embarrassment which Obama couldn't afford. Of course, they are claiming that the compound showed evidence of planning attacks but we should remember the claims of weapons of mass destruction. OBL was in a compound with no internet, no phone access, and communicated via runners who had to be 90 minutes away before they could put in their phone batteries. The actual operational centre of Al Qaida had been in the middle east, particularly Egypt for some time. It is only since OBLs execution that administration people are claiming the compound was a "command and control centre". If that was truly the case, they would already have known it. It's just not credible.
As for where he could be tried, the ICC is an excellent place, the same place incidentally that the Bosnian war criminals were tried. Similar charges could be raised against Bush incidentally. Putting OBL on trial wouldn't have given him any more legitimacy than the US has already given him. But it would have put into question the actions of the US as well and Obama couldn't afford that.
Al Qaida has never been a central organisation but a loose body to which individual groups pledge allegiance. For that reason, it cannot be charged as an entity in a criminal court any more than say "islamic fundamentalism" could be. The charges have to be against a specific group with evidence pointing to individuals. The war on terror circumvents this very basic legal principle and in this case was used to carry out an execution which is illegal under international law. |
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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2011 : 10:11:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
And as for Pakistan's sovereignty, I'm not going to be sympathetic. They were telling us lies for years, protecting a fugitive that they could have handed over with ease. That kind of duplicity is enough to send the entire Pakistani military and government leadership to prison by western laws. Obstruction of justice, material aid to a wanted felon, and so on.
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That's the kind of dismissal of law that gives the US such a bad reputation. The duplicity, far from being enough to send people to prison, is an essential and accepted part of international diplomacy, the kind practiced by the West as well as the East from time immemorial. OBL was a fugitive from the extrajudicial attacks from the West. I agree that he was a nasty piece of work but his actions are only comparable to any number of US Defence Secretaries. Remember that according to the UN, the civilian death toll in the invasion of Panama was on a par with 9/11. They too were innocent civilians but no international death warrant went out against US politicians. The rest of the world notices these things.
If OBL is to be considered an acceptable target, then by the same standards, so should the US politicians. The way to deal with this is exactly through international courts where internationally acceptable standards are expected.
And as for material aid to wanted felons, the US support and financing of any number of dictatorships presumably would also qualify. If notions of "justice" and "law" are to have any meaning, countries like the US cannot regard itself as immune or above the process. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2011 : 10:53:11 [Permalink]
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I might be more concerned with Pakistan's sovereignty if they hadn't been getting tens of billions of my tax dollars to support their government. It's not dismissing to say that Pakistan had to ability to prevent the death of OBL. We support their government and in return we get.... very few of the things promised. The man could have been arrested and given a fair trial had Pakistan delivered the cooperation they promised. And if you are going to play the international diplomacy card, you have to put military force on the table as a viable tool along with duplicity. Pakistan was supposed to be an ally. Instead they turn out to be an enabler of international terrorism.
I agree that more effort should have been made to capture instead of kill. The story, as I have it, is that there was a small amount of initial resistance encountered, so the navy seals considered everyone else from that point forward to be an armed combatant unless they clearly surrendered. No other gunfire was encountered, but OBL was shot because he didn't surrender (he had opportunity, the seal who found him shot a person rushing at him first) and was in immediate proximity of weapons. Given OBL's past statements that he would die resisting rather than be captured, I can't fault the seal for putting him down, even though it would have been a better outcome if he were taken alive.
Also, you won't get much other argument from me about the history of US foreign policy. It's littered with as much asshattery and bloodshed as the history of British foreign policy. Basically westerners have been fucking people over as often as we help for a long time. It's bullshit, and in many cases criminal. Maybe globalism will force change on us all, hopefully for the better.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2011 : 16:27:29 [Permalink]
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Fallout; that was quick and not really much of a surprise.
Disney Trademarks "Seal Team 6"
By Alex Weprin on May 13, 2011 4:25 PM
In a perfect example of a big media company looking to capitalize on current events, The Walt Disney Company has trademarked "Seal Team 6," which also happens to be the name of the elite special forces team that killed Osama Bin Laden.
The trademark applications came on May 3rd, two days after the operation that killed Bin Laden… and two days after "Seal Team 6" was included in thousands of news articles and TV programs focusing on the operation.
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I have a suspicion that we will get tired of the advertising even quicker.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2011 : 01:53:26 [Permalink]
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| How can they trademark a designation like that? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 12:46:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
How can they trademark a designation like that?
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I don't know the law on this -- or much of anything else, comes to that -- but I think they copy-write the phrase rather than the unit. Me, I think the rank commercialization coming so fast on the heels of of that dangerous and indeed, historic operation is demeaning to SEAL 6. Fuck Disney.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 12:55:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
How can they trademark a designation like that?
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I don't know the law on this -- or much of anything else, comes to that -- but I think they copy-write the phrase rather than the unit. Me, I think the rank commercialization coming so fast on the heels of of that dangerous and indeed, historic operation is demeaning to SEAL 6. Fuck Disney.
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Yeah. But the whole raid might make for a great ride at Disneyland or an animated film, or both!
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 18:27:25 [Permalink]
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How much do you want to bet that the Disney version will use characters that are actual seals?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 10:31:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I might be more concerned with Pakistan's sovereignty if they hadn't been getting tens of billions of my tax dollars to support their government. |
So just because you think you've paid enough dollars to buy off the Pakistan government, you can ignore the country's sovreignty and international rule of law?
Does that also include all countries you paid off under the Marshall Plan?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Osama bin Laden has been killed
