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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 05/03/2011 : 22:03:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
But that's his/their point of view. |
Why should I care about the points of view of religious zealots? The entire point of this sort of attack is for it to only harm civilians, with no other real target. The idea that it could actually bring economic collapse is not supported in any sense, as much as he would like to take credit for the Soviet collapse, that's just not supported.
Bin Laden's body of work toward the West has a great concentration of civilians as intended targets. Other than the U.S.S. Cole, most everything else has been toward civilians. We don't really know what he's been running in Afghanistan toward soldiers, but I think attacking soldiers in Afghanistan is less blameworthy, there is some justification for attacks on any invading army, and any such army should expect it.
Bin Laden's rhetoric for doing any of this is just as much about religious zealotry as about any legitimate political matters. His intention is to get the West out of the region, which is a position that can be supported by people in the area for good purposes, self-determination or keeping their resources or what have you, but these aren't his goals. His stated goal is to establish absolutely theocratic states under fundamentalist interpretations of sharia.
Remember what the US administration said when they bombed a Chinese diplomatic contingent in Belgrade during the Balkan war: "Oops".
Since when has American soldiers been squeamish about collateral damage? I've seen on news footage how they were firing blind around a corner toward civilian housing from which they claimed someone were shooting.
Just have a look at the collateral murder link in my signature, for the famous wikileaks video. |
If they didn't care about collateral damage, why even send troops somewhere like Sadr City? Why not just destroy the place? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 00:05:49 [Permalink]
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You know Mab, I know you have serious problems with many of the things this country has done. So do we. If it were up to me, Bush and Cheney would be arrested for crimes against humanity. We should get out of Afghanistan. But here's the thing. Bin Laden literally declared war on the United States and then came here and killed over 3000 civilians. The one thing we have a right to do is to defend ourselves. The legitimate target, that I don't think any reasonable person can argue against, is Al-Qaeda and bin Laden. If we had done what we should have done back then before delusions of a pax amaricana became the goal of a very wrongheaded administration, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would have gone into Afghanistan, something that was supported by world opinion and law, and taken care of what was our business to take care of.
You can list every bad thing this country has done and that doesn't erase the harm bin Laden has done to both the muslim world, (most of which has no love lost for Al-Qaeda which should be evident by the current revolts in so many countries that have nothing at all to do with Al-Qaeda because Al-Qaeda isn't for the democracy that the people are demanding, plus there were the thousands of muslims targeted and killed on bin Ladens orders by Al-Qaeda) and us.
We're all pissed off about Iraq and all the shit that has gone down. We are outraged by the war crimes too. But bin Laden, if ever we had a legitimate target, was it. He's gone now. Let's see where we go from here. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 05:42:30 [Permalink]
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If what we’ve heard is true, the raid was pulled off with very little collateral damage. That is rare. Mostly, when the rifles start going off they’re shooting at anything that moves in enemy territory. This raid was done with almost surgical precision by highly trained, military professionals who deserve all of the kudos they are getting.
But what, really, have they accomplished? The biggest thing, apart from feel-good revenge, is that a distraction has been removed and we can get on with the business of salvaging the country that Bush and the Republicans have done their best to destroy.
Bin Laden resides with the hagfishs now, so we can’t dance on his grave. And the whackaloons are on their way out of the woodwork. I look at that as macabre entertainment. They lost their birth certificate gambit, but now they have a whole ‘nother set of conspiracy speculations to worry like a puppy with a dead rat. They're gonna lose that one, too.
I look foreword to seeing them try to cope with it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 06:03:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Fripp, I'm not saying we can't be satisfied with his death. Its a sad fact that some people need to be killed and that their deaths make the world a better place.
The problem I'm having in general right now is with people actually celebrating. People calling for his body to be dragged through the streets Illiad/Oddesy style, for his head to be put on a pike.
It doesn't put you in lock-step with the idiocy that has occured since 9/11, what it does is make me think that if we can't be better than our enemies then what the hell are we even fighting for?
Its a disgusting spectacle, it made me mad when people celebrated the 9/11 attacks, and when we are the source of the exact same behavior it very seriously pisses me off.
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I understand everything your saying and I didn't want to start a debate. I guess that when I read everyone feeling that they felt no "cause for celebration" (that's not a direct quote, it's my broad brush impression of folks' responses), I wanted to say that I equate bin laden's death to Hitler's death.
In short, I wanted Bin Laden dead on 9/11 and now I'm ecstatic that he is. Everything else in between was by-and-large a huge cluster-fuck. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 06:07:44 [Permalink]
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| Machiavelli's and Kil's posts at the start of Page 3 state my position on this far more eloquently than I have been able to express, so I am going to refer any further debate to those two posts. Thanks, gents. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 06:48:57 [Permalink]
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Machi4velli said:
| Why should I care about the points of view of religious zealots? |
Because you can't defeat an enemy unless you understand them, their intent, their goals, and and how they think.
Know your enemy. If you don't, you end up like W, thrashing around fucking things up and accomplishing nothing, and doing more harm to yourself than your enemy could ever hope to do.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 18:06:47 [Permalink]
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I believe that everyone has seen this twit tweet.
@SarahPalinUSA Show photo as warning to others seeking America's destruction. No pussy-footing around, no politicking, no drama;it's part of the mission
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Mission? She know this how? Of course she probably also believes that Obama still needs to land on an aircraft carrier for a photo opt and a speech. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 18:20:29 [Permalink]
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What happens now?
According to AP, one of the most wanted Al-Qieda officers just surrendered to Saudi.
I think this hurt the organization which killed indicrimanently all faiths including Islam.
Gaza will be Gaza since they view things through a filter where they are being deprived of basic construction needs. It would tend to show Al Qieda as the only alternative. However, that is further weakened by the uprisings in several African and Arab countries.
When the government is not providing the stability and basic needs of the population, they are in serious trouble. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 19:30:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Machi4velli said:
| Why should I care about the points of view of religious zealots? |
Because you can't defeat an enemy unless you understand them, their intent, their goals, and and how they think.
Know your enemy. If you don't, you end up like W, thrashing around fucking things up and accomplishing nothing, and doing more harm to yourself than your enemy could ever hope to do.
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That isn't quite what I meant, I should have said:
"Why should I give validity to the point of view that the civilians killed were not innocent?"
For example, Pat Robertson says Muslims are evil and I know the argument is based on his interpretation of his religious book which does not have validity as a source, so I don't really need to give the point of view any credence.
You're certainly right that understanding the positions is important if I am attempting to defeat the ideology driving it. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 19:43:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Bin Laden literally declared war on the United States and then came here and killed over 3000 civilians. The one thing we have a right to do is to defend ourselves. The legitimate target, that I don't think any reasonable person can argue against, is Al-Qaeda and bin Laden. |
I don't. Just wanted to point out that stupid shit that USA has pulled off has been mounting, and it's not like you were in a state of "peace" before 9/11. You just got caught off guard, because of incompetence. It was a surprise attack, but it wasn't the first shot fired.
But anyone not partisan should agree that Bin Ladin and Al-Qaida were legitimate targets.
I suppose some will claim that performing the operation deep in Pakistan territory is a violation of Pakistan soverign rights, but that's a politics game. Due to domestic politics, the Pakistani government could never admit they allowed US troops capture Bin Ladin, and so they must officially protest the action.
| If we had done what we should have done back then before delusions of a pax amaricana became the goal of a very wrongheaded administration, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would have gone into Afghanistan, something that was supported by world opinion and law, and taken care of what was our business to take care of. |
And you would have had my support on that. Stupid rhetoric aside (you know, "you're either with us or against us", and pretty much everything else coming from Bush).
| You can list every bad thing this country has done |
I don't. I haven't. Bin Ladin didn't order the WTC-attack because you invaded Iraq to kill Saddam. It's the other way around.
and that doesn't erase the harm bin Laden has done to both the muslim world, and us. |
I just have to defer to Dude. Bin Ladin managed to trick you into abandoning your ideals, and I think it went easier than he expected.
(most of which has no love lost for Al-Qaeda which should be evident by the current revolts in so many countries that have nothing at all to do with Al-Qaeda because Al-Qaeda isn't for the democracy that the people are demanding, plus there were the thousands of muslims targeted and killed on bin Ladens orders by Al-Qaeda) |
Ironic, isn't it?
We're all pissed off about Iraq and all the shit that has gone down. We are outraged by the war crimes too. But bin Laden, if ever we had a legitimate target, was it. He's gone now. Let's see where we go from here.
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I agree. You have the best management in over 10 years. Internet and cheap telecommunications is bringing democratic values to retarded countries, and ignorance has to give away to enlightment.
The world is looking much brighter now than it did 6 months ago. If we could only turn global climate as powerfully.
Edit: clarification above added in blue. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/05/2011 11:11:13 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 04:01:56 [Permalink]
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I’m not going to bother to link any of this because anyone who hasn’t already heard it is living in a hermitage so remote and desolate that you couldn’t find it even with the google at full throttle.
Obama says he won’t release the photos of the defunct, religiously insane Saudi asshole. Predictably, this has brought forth howls of outrage from the birthers, now known as the “deathers,” among other, more colorful nicknames. Having had a little time to think about it, I believe Obama to be correct.
Should he put them up, cries of fraud will reverberate from coast to coast ‘cause they won’t believe it if only that it all came from that black usurper in the White House. So what would be accomplished?
Having seen head-shot corpses, trust me, we won’t be missing much. There is a certain ghastly fascination for those into graphic mayhem but little beyond disgust for the rest of us. A snuff-out in still life.
Anyhow, the pix will doubtless be leaked and on line soon, and some idiot will get fired for it. In the meantime, there are lots of real frauds out there to titillate the senses of the brain-damaged. They appeared with amazing speed.
Whaddya think?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 07:45:45 [Permalink]
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I think it's the correct decision. And you're right. To the conspiracy nutters, nothing will suffice. They'll just cry foul and/or move the goal posts. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 11:09:49 [Permalink]
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The morning after the announcement, my husband woke me up on his way to work saying, "Obama killed Osama bin Laden." I smiled. That was my gut reaction. Although I think I mostly smiled because I'm sick of the crab about Obama being a Muslim from Kenya, yadda yadda yadda, and this would really stick it to the conservatives.
I was very excited to watch the Daily Show after the announcement because I remember being incredibly moved by Jon Stewart's on-camera expressions of grief after 9-11. I love how Stewart just says what's on his mind. But then I watched it, and he was a little too celebratory for me. It was the sort of thing where if he'd been acting that way at home with friends, it would be fine, but since he's a pretty prominent and influential figure in the media doing it on his show, it was crass and disappointing. I wasn't surprised by the celebrations, but definitely put off and saddened by them. I totally agree with HHumbert's first comments in this conversation.
The best coverage of reaction to bin Laden's death I've heard so far was on NPR's "Here and Now", interviewing some Boston U college students. The students had a variety of very thoughtful remarks. http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2011/05/03/september-generation-laden
I've enjoyed reading this conversation on the topic, and found this remark from Dude most profound:
Because you can't defeat an enemy unless you understand them, their intent, their goals, and and how they think. |
This is so true and yet such a frustrating truth, because it is so much more emotionally satisfying to just see the enemy as a monster and scream "Yahoo!" when we manage to blow them away. Those are easy, awesome feelings. That's why we have so many movies that indulge such feelings. But in reality, all people are people, even terrorists. In reality, we all have the potential for committing acts of great heroism and acts of great terror. Under the right circumstances, any one of us could become a monster.
I am left not feeling much about bin Laden's death at all, with the exception of hope that his death will lead to less suffering in the world, or at very least, not more.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2011 : 04:05:08 [Permalink]
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Outside the US the reaction has been much more based on international law and there are several really important aspects to this.
Firstly, this was an extrajudicial killing, the entry into a foreign sovereign country without consent to assassinate a target using military force. The justification was simply that the US had declared him an enemy. Whatever he might have claimed for his own responsibility for 9/11, the US had already declared him a target before then, claiming his involvement in various other terrorist attacks. But when asked to provide evidence, the US couldn't. Nevertheless, he was declared to be a legitimate target and the US took it on itself to declare that it had the right to pursue him and other declared terrorists around the world wherever they might be - exactly the same approach to international law that jihadis follow. It is the willful dismissal of international law.
Secondly, in the eyes of very many muslims, it was the US who declared the war long before 9/11 through it's actions around the world through decades of backing murderous dictators, invading countries, engineering coups, and especially in backing the Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. It is quite disingenuous to keep repeating that it was islamic terrorists who declared war on the US. For many around the world, 9/11 was anything but unexpected though many Americans were in blissful ignorance of the geopolitical consequences of American foreign policy. What 9/11 did was to bring the battlefield to US territory instead of leaving it scattered around the world in Panama, Granada, Nicaragua, Palestine, Chile, El Salvador, and countless other places.
Thirdly, there is the US notion of justice. If extrajudicial killing is to be seen as acceptable, a form of justice, then the whole basis of the International Criminal Court is moot. Of course, the US doesn't like the ICC because if it complied with the requirements, many US politicians would find themselves in the dock. But if the US administration feels it can redefine justice on the international scene to suit the requirements of its foreign policy, the international rule of law is completed subverted. This means permanent and endless war against those who oppose US foreign policy, perennial skirmishes, the ever-present killing-by-drone of large numbers of innocent civilians as in Pakistan, and consequently endless terrorist attacks. The US has dismantled the principle of international justice because it got in the way of its foreign policy and the people of America continue to suffer as a result.
Lastly, there is the responsibility for geopolitical stability. The US has always put democracy way behind business interests; despite the Fifth Fleet being in Bahrain, no-one has suggested that the US should stop the beating and killing of medical personnel who helped those unarmed demonstrators who were shot protesting for democratic rights. Until the US people accept responsibility for what their government has done in their name, and react against it, the geopolitical business interests will continue to rule the roost. US people will continue to be sent to wars to protect commercial interests. Jingoism ensures that the people will all line up with a hard president "fighting the good fight" but too many Americans remain ignorant of global political reality. They are literally lambs to the slaughter. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2011 : 06:22:58 [Permalink]
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Bob Lloyd, you make some great points, many of which are the reasons behind the feelings of frustration and helplessness on the part of Americans who have adamantly rejected and protested U.S. military actions and meddling around the world to serve the interests of the already powerful here despite the hypocrisy and harm it causes.
I do have some responses:
-There seems to be plenty of evidence that Osama bin Laden orchestrated 9-11. In addition to bin Laden and al-Qaeda claiming responsibility, the identity of the hijackers and their connected to al-Qaeda was discovered right away.
-The official line is that bin Laden was to be captured if possible and he was killed in a 40 minute fire fight that included a U.S. stealth helicopter being destroyed. It is questionable whether he could have been captured alive.
-If bin Laden were tried, where would be tried? Trying him through the ICC would give political legitimacy to al-Qaeda. Regardless of the horrible things the U.S. has done around the world, organizations like al-Qaeda are NOT leaders of legitimate nation states. That is why they resort to outright terrorism targeting civilians.
As I mentioned before, the only feelings I really have over this killing are happiness that it will probably greatly improve Obama's chances in the next election. And while Obama is just a moderate who is continuing a lot of America's harmful policies, he's still a way better option that the batshit insane people running on the right. President Palin, anyone? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Osama bin Laden has been killed
