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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
 Posted - 05/25/2011 : 18:23:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by changingmyself
Your website isn't research david, is is bullshit.
I have seen 7-8th graders put more effort in their book reports than what you put into your "research". |
Yep, resorting to insults. At this point I'll just wait and see what kind of evidence you post in the debate and let your evidence speak for itself, all right?
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Straw man...
The book isn't going to change from now until then david.
Can you admit that you were wrong? |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 18:54:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
Can you admit that you were wrong?
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Depends on whether I'm wrong or not. Show me where Sirius is a significator of Horus' birth (and, no, not just someone repeating the claim).
The "Morning Star" by the way, is generally agreed to be Venus, not Sirius:
"Morning Star is the name given to the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 04:19:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by changingmyself
Can you admit that you were wrong?
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Depends on whether I'm wrong or not. Show me where Sirius is a significator of Horus' birth (and, no, not just someone repeating the claim).
The "Morning Star" by the way, is generally agreed to be Venus, not Sirius:
"Morning Star is the name given to the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star
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Straw man again...
Can you admit that you are wrong? |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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jlg2169
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 07:36:15 [Permalink]
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Straw man again...
Can you admit that you are wrong?
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Maybe I'm just slow, but saying "straw man" over and over again doesn't make it so. You brought up the morning star and said it was Sirius, KingDavid just pointed out that the morning star is Venus... If anything, you're ignoring his point and using your "straw man" mantra to cover it up.
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 08:10:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jlg2169
Straw man again...
Can you admit that you are wrong?
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Maybe I'm just slow, but saying "straw man" over and over again doesn't make it so. You brought up the morning star and said it was Sirius, KingDavid just pointed out that the morning star is Venus... If anything, you're ignoring his point and using your "straw man" mantra to cover it up.
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The straw man is that no one said that the Morning Star was Sirius. I didn't say it, the "higher scholar" that works at a university didn't say it.
The Morning Star information is about Athar.
The Sirius information is about Osiris and Isis.
An equivalent would be like you saying that Koolaid is red in one sentence and in another that you played baseball when you were little
and I reply with...
"Baseballs are not made out of Koolaid."
Those are two separate statements, thus should not be combined and had David actually looked at the scholarly source I listed he would have known that.
Now did I catch you up to speed?
Try not to let David fool you by his playing the victim. This is the type of straw man that he has done for 6+ months. He combined the two statements to make it look like my information was wrong. This is the typical slithering that he does when he is faced with what the actual texts and scholars say compared to his fairy tale children's stories that he lists on his website and then going around saying that he debunked Zeitgeist with them.
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"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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| Edited by - changingmyself on 05/26/2011 08:24:28 |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 10:04:21 [Permalink]
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Changing,
I guess I don't understand what the point was that you were trying to make. You said that I was wrong, but I can't see how any of the information you gave showed that I was. Maybe try again, and be a little clearer about what I said that was wrong, and how your information proves that I was. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 11:33:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Changing,
I guess I don't understand what the point was that you were trying to make. You said that I was wrong, but I can't see how any of the information you gave showed that I was. Maybe try again, and be a little clearer about what I said that was wrong, and how your information proves that I was.
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Reread this david...go slower if you need to.
THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO ATHAR BEING THE MORNING STAR
Here is another one for you david, one that I am sure you have probably never heard of.
The fall of the angels - Page 63
Christoph Auffarth, Loren T. Stuckenbruck -
“The ancient Arabic deity Athar is indeed connected with the morning star"
CHRISTOPH AUFFARTH, PROF. DR. DR.
Visiting Fellow 2010: University Professor, Institute for the Study of Religion and Religion Education, University of Bremen, Germany
What is that david? Does that say morning star? Sounds just like Jesus when he says:
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Revelation 22:16
This evidence is demonstrating that other gods before Jesus time were referred to as the morning star, just like Jesus.
THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO SIRIUS/ISIS.
The fall of the angels - Page 68-70
Christoph Auffarth, Loren T. Stuckenbruck -
CHRISTOPH AUFFARTH, PROF. DR. DR.
Visiting Fellow 2010: University Professor, Institute for the Study of Religion and Religion Education, University of Bremen, Germany
SAME BOOK AS MENTIONED ABOVE
You might want to read pages 68-70 Notice that it talks about Sirius.
Remember saying this david?
"And the star Sirius is not a significator of Horus' birth in any way, shape or form, and neither is it a "star in the east". No stars can reside exclusively "in the east" due to Earth's rotation."
kingdavid246 1 week ago
See that on page 68 david?
This evidence is showing that Sirius was significant of Horus's birth in all ways, shapes, and forms because on
Page 70
"In the same way Isis (sister of Osiris) is only represented in the star Sirius too. Isis Sopdet and Osiris Sah are the most important stars in the Egyptian Astral Mythology."
Page 71
"The equation of Osiris with the deceased king was a constant element in the Egyptian royal ideology, while the living king is equated with his son Horus.
Orion-Osiris and Sirius-Isis are also the central constellation on the ceiling of the tomb of Senmut from the reign of Hatschepsut and on other tomb-ceilings.
This corresponds to an inscription on the scarophagus of king Merenptah (end of the 13th Century BCE) in which the sky-goddes, as Orion and Sothis (Sirius) promises rebirth to the deceased king."
Sirius=Isis, you were wrong.
Can you admit it?
The whole "star in the east" is another one of your attempted straw men arguments, I have never claimed that stars can remain in the east. EVER.
Fixing Spellings. |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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| Edited by - changingmyself on 05/26/2011 11:51:43 |
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Jcm9991
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 12:27:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by changingmyself
Can you admit that you were wrong?
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Depends on whether I'm wrong or not. Show me where Sirius is a significator of Horus' birth (and, no, not just someone repeating the claim).
The "Morning Star" by the way, is generally agreed to be Venus, not Sirius:
"Morning Star is the name given to the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star
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Right, so David, when the Egyptian Pyramid Texts say that, "The morning star shall give you birth *WITH* Orion.", they are in fact referring to Venus as being the morning star not Sirius? Is this what you're claiming? |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 15:10:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO ATHAR BEING THE MORNING STAR
Here is another one for you david, one that I am sure you have probably never heard of.
The fall of the angels - Page 63
Christoph Auffarth, Loren T. Stuckenbruck -
“The ancient Arabic deity Athar is indeed connected with the morning star"
CHRISTOPH AUFFARTH, PROF. DR. DR.
Visiting Fellow 2010: University Professor, Institute for the Study of Religion and Religion Education, University of Bremen, Germany
What is that david? Does that say morning star? Sounds just like Jesus when he says:
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." |
So...what you're saying is that if someone refers to themselves using a phrase that has also been applied to fictional characters, that this makes the person fictional? "Morning Star" is a general word for coming into prominence, and doesn't make the person it refers to fictional.
THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO SIRIUS/ISIS.
The fall of the angels - Page 68-70
Christoph Auffarth, Loren T. Stuckenbruck -
CHRISTOPH AUFFARTH, PROF. DR. DR.
Visiting Fellow 2010: University Professor, Institute for the Study of Religion and Religion Education, University of Bremen, Germany
SAME BOOK AS MENTIONED ABOVE
You might want to read pages 68-70 Notice that it talks about Sirius. |
And what does it say about Sirius that's relevant to our discussion?
Remember saying this david?
"And the star Sirius is not a significator of Horus' birth in any way, shape or form, and neither is it a "star in the east". No stars can reside exclusively "in the east" due to Earth's rotation."
kingdavid246 1 week ago
See that on page 68 david? |
Nope. It's on GoogleBooks, but only goes up to page 60 for me. So what's on page 68?
Page 70
"In the same way Isis (sister of Osiris) is only represented in the star Sirius too. Isis Sopdet and Osiris Sah are the most important stars in the Egyptian Astral Mythology." |
I don't disagree that Isis is equated with Sirius, but that doesn't make Sirius a "significator" of Horus' birth. A significator is "a planet or a sign that is said to rule specific objects, places, people and diseases". It's a huge stretch to say that just because Horus' mother is equated with Sirius, that makes the star Sirius a "significator" of Horus' birth.
Page 71
"The equation of Osiris with the deceased king was a constant element in the Egyptian royal ideology, while the living king is equated with his son Horus.
Orion-Osiris and Sirius-Isis are also the central constellation on the ceiling of the tomb of Senmut from the reign of Hatschepsut and on other tomb-ceilings.
This corresponds to an inscription on the scarophagus of king Merenptah (end of the 13th Century BCE) in which the sky-goddes, as Orion and Sothis (Sirius) promises rebirth to the deceased king."
Sirius=Isis, you were wrong. |
When did I say Sirius wasn't equated with Isis? All I said was that Sirius wasn't a "significator" of Horus' birth, and you haven't shown that it was.
| The whole "star in the east" is another one of your attempted straw men arguments, I have never claimed that stars can remain in the east. EVER. |
I believe I said that in response to Zeitgeist, not to you. Zeitgeist claims that Sirius is a "star in the east", but due to the rotation of the earth, it's in the west just as often as it's in the east. Stars can reside exclusively in the north or south, but not in the east or west. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 15:57:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jcm9991
Right, so David, when the Egyptian Pyramid Texts say that, "The morning star shall give you birth *WITH* Orion.", they are in fact referring to Venus as being the morning star not Sirius? Is this what you're claiming?
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In that specific case, probably not. But, in general, "Morning Star" refers to Venus, since it's the last celestial object to "disappear" as the sun rises. |
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Jcm9991
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 16:51:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by Jcm9991
Right, so David, when the Egyptian Pyramid Texts say that, "The morning star shall give you birth *WITH* Orion.", they are in fact referring to Venus as being the morning star not Sirius? Is this what you're claiming?
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In that specific case, probably not. But, in general, "Morning Star" refers to Venus, since it's the last celestial object to "disappear" as the sun rises.
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Well as long as we can both agree that in *Egyptian* mythology the Morning Star was identified and observed as Sirius.
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 16:58:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by changingmyself
THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO ATHAR BEING THE MORNING STAR
Here is another one for you david, one that I am sure you have probably never heard of.
The fall of the angels - Page 63
Christoph Auffarth, Loren T. Stuckenbruck -
“The ancient Arabic deity Athar is indeed connected with the morning star"
CHRISTOPH AUFFARTH, PROF. DR. DR.
Visiting Fellow 2010: University Professor, Institute for the Study of Religion and Religion Education, University of Bremen, Germany
What is that david? Does that say morning star? Sounds just like Jesus when he says:
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." |
So...what you're saying is that if someone refers to themselves using a phrase that has also been applied to fictional characters, that this makes the person fictional? "Morning Star" is a general word for coming into prominence, and doesn't make the person it refers to fictional.
Aren't we looking for parallels? There are thousands of names that Jesus could have called himself, like the big dipper, but instead, he calls himself the Morning Star, the same thing that many gods before him did. Sounds like a parallel to me.
THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO SIRIUS/ISIS.
The fall of the angels - Page 68-70
Christoph Auffarth, Loren T. Stuckenbruck -
CHRISTOPH AUFFARTH, PROF. DR. DR.
Visiting Fellow 2010: University Professor, Institute for the Study of Religion and Religion Education, University of Bremen, Germany
SAME BOOK AS MENTIONED ABOVE
You might want to read pages 68-70 Notice that it talks about Sirius. |
And what does it say about Sirius that's relevant to our discussion?
I do not know why you brought it up to me, but you were the one that brought it up because that was addressed to me on youtube.
Remember saying this david?
"And the star Sirius is not a significator of Horus' birth in any way, shape or form, and neither is it a "star in the east". No stars can reside exclusively "in the east" due to Earth's rotation."
kingdavid246 1 week ago
See that on page 68 david? |
Nope. It's on GoogleBooks, but only goes up to page 60 for me. So what's on page 68?
Is this why you didn't read the evidence? Type Isis into the search for that book, it should come up.
Page 70
"In the same way Isis (sister of Osiris) is only represented in the star Sirius too. Isis Sopdet and Osiris Sah are the most important stars in the Egyptian Astral Mythology." |
I don't disagree that Isis is equated with Sirius, but that doesn't make Sirius a "significator" of Horus' birth. A significator is "a planet or a sign that is said to rule specific objects, places, people and diseases". It's a huge stretch to say that just because Horus' mother is equated with Sirius, that makes the star Sirius a "significator" of Horus' birth.
Why would that even be something that would be relevant to the parallel david? Again, you brought this up, maybe you should explain why you were saying this.
Page 71
"The equation of Osiris with the deceased king was a constant element in the Egyptian royal ideology, while the living king is equated with his son Horus.
Orion-Osiris and Sirius-Isis are also the central constellation on the ceiling of the tomb of Senmut from the reign of Hatschepsut and on other tomb-ceilings.
This corresponds to an inscription on the scarophagus of king Merenptah (end of the 13th Century BCE) in which the sky-goddes, as Orion and Sothis (Sirius) promises rebirth to the deceased king."
Sirius=Isis, you were wrong. |
When did I say Sirius wasn't equated with Isis? All I said was that Sirius wasn't a "significator" of Horus' birth, and you haven't shown that it was.
| The whole "star in the east" is another one of your attempted straw men arguments, I have never claimed that stars can remain in the east. EVER. |
I believe I said that in response to Zeitgeist, not to you. Zeitgeist claims that Sirius is a "star in the east", but due to the rotation of the earth, it's in the west just as often as it's in the east. Stars can reside exclusively in the north or south, but not in the east or west.
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No, you said this as a reply to me.
The author/scholar says
Page 68
"The astral rebirth of the king was in astronomical terms regarded as the heliacal rising of the royal star, that is, when it made its first appearance in the horizon following a period of invisability.
In Egypt, the heliacal rising of the stars, which is their reappearance from the netherworld is also expressed through the "birth" metaphor whereas the akronychal setting, which is the entry into the netherworld, is described as a dying of the stars! For Sirius-Sothis (sopdet)---the brightest star which was of special importance in Egypt---astronomical texts give a 70 day period of invisibility after which the star rises heliacally in the East."
So yes, the heliacal rising of -Sirius was a significator in Horus's "birth". |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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| Edited by - changingmyself on 05/26/2011 17:16:47 |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 17:06:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jcm9991
Well as long as we can both agree that in *Egyptian* mythology the Morning Star was identified and observed as Sirius.
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At least in that particular story, sure. But they also referred to Venus as the morning star, calling it "Tioumoutiri". |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 18:06:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
| So...what you're saying is that if someone refers to themselves using a phrase that has also been applied to fictional characters, that this makes the person fictional? "Morning Star" is a general word for coming into prominence, and doesn't make the person it refers to fictional. |
Aren't we looking for parallels? There are thousands of names that Jesus could have called himself, like the big dipper, but instead, he calls himself the Morning Star, the same thing that many gods before him did. Sounds like a parallel to me. |
Alexander the Great referred to himself as "King of Kings", just like Osiris did. That sounds like a parallel to me. Does this suggest that Alexander the Great never existed?
You have to realize that Christ-mythers are essentially comparing Jesus to every pre-Christian deity, of whom many have multiple stories. That's one hell of a big net, so it's no surprise that as we pore over all of these stories, a few parallels happen to pop up. But since most of the Christ-myther "parallels" have no factual basis in pre-Christian religions or mythology, this just shows that Christ-mythers themselves don't find the few valid parallels very convincing. If they did, why did they feel the need to fabricate so many more in order to bolster their case?
| You might want to read pages 68-70 Notice that it talks about Sirius. |
And what does it say about Sirius that's relevant to our discussion? |
I do not know why you brought it up to me, but you were the one that brought it up because that was addressed to me on youtube. |
No, you brought up that book and what it supposedly says about Sirius.
| I don't disagree that Isis is equated with Sirius, but that doesn't make Sirius a "significator" of Horus' birth. A significator is "a planet or a sign that is said to rule specific objects, places, people and diseases". It's a huge stretch to say that just because Horus' mother is equated with Sirius, that makes the star Sirius a "significator" of Horus' birth. |
Why would that even be something that would be relevant to the parallel david? Again, you brought this up, maybe you should explain why you were saying this. |
Ummm...because you said I lied about it?
I believe I said that in response to Zeitgeist, not to you. Zeitgeist claims that Sirius is a "star in the east", but due to the rotation of the earth, it's in the west just as often as it's in the east. Stars can reside exclusively in the north or south, but not in the east or west.
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No, you said this as a reply to me. |
Then what did you say that I was responding to?
The author/scholar says
Page 68
"The astral rebirth of the king was in astronomical terms regarded as the heliacal rising of the royal star, that is, when it made its first appearance in the horizon following a period of invisability.
In Egypt, the heliacal rising of the stars, which is their reappearance from the netherworld is also expressed through the "birth" metaphor whereas the akronychal setting, which is the entry into the netherworld, is described as a dying of the stars! For Sirius-Sothis (sopdet)---the brightest star which was of special importance in Egypt---astronomical texts give a 70 day period of invisibility after which the star rises heliacally in the East."
So yes, the heliacal rising of -Sirius was a significator in Horus's "birth".
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Except that Horus isn't mentioned in that passage at all. In fact, in the entire book, he's only mentioned once, and that's a few pages after this passage. |
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THE ZG EVIDENCE...
