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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 08:01:28 [Permalink]
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| Actually, Ebone, the more I read your posts in this conversation, the more I think you aren't actually saying much of anything. All your criticisms are pretty empty, full of vague, snide remarks and cliches. It's like you are just using the topic as an excuse to once again vent your strong emotions regarding your personal experiences with poverty and poor people. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2011 : 08:23:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I'm not buying that for a second. Thats just excusing laziness. |
If someone runs a marathon, is it "lazy" for them to claim to be too exhausted to move pianos that afternoon?
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Bad analogy. I understand that the original article that prompted this discussion is not-so-directly equating mental with physical "tiredness" but they really are not the same.
I would like to see a study comparing the mental stress of lets say....a businessman to that of the average poor person. I think that would be more helpful. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 08:54:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I'm not buying that for a second. Thats just excusing laziness. |
If someone runs a marathon, is it "lazy" for them to claim to be too exhausted to move pianos that afternoon?
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Perhaps a more direct analogy: if Dave W injures himself in a failed attempt to move a piano to his upstairs apartment, is he "lazy" if he feels unfit to try again later? His dilemma may be that the piano is still sitting at the bottom of the stairs, blocking access to everyone else in the building. His failure is the cause of his own injury, and also the reason his neighbors are justifiably pissed off. Lacking the resources to hire professional movers, he tried to "help himself," but managed to set himself back in the attempt, and created a problem for others at the same time. As much as he may want to fix the problem he created, he has no choice but to rely on the donated help to get him out of his jam.
Ebone doesn't seem to be addressing this specific situation, however. He is saying that he has no sympathy for someone who has a piano delivered to the bottom of their apartment building's staircase, but then refuses to take any responsibility for moving it out of the way. He is condemning this generic, "lazy" individual, but I suspect he might be more charitable toward Dave W's specific predicament (if only a little). The problem is, Ebone, your postings suggest a willingness on your part to characterize all poor people as "lazy", in this generic sense, while at the same time you assert that marfknox characterizes all poor people as being blameless.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 09:06:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I'm not buying that for a second. Thats just excusing laziness. |
If someone runs a marathon, is it "lazy" for them to claim to be too exhausted to move pianos that afternoon?
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Bad analogy. I understand that the original article that prompted this discussion is not-so-directly equating mental with physical "tiredness" but they really are not the same.
I would like to see a study comparing the mental stress of lets say....a businessman to that of the average poor person. I think that would be more helpful.
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As an analogy, I don't think it's too far off, but I understand what you're getting at. I am a stressed-out professional myself, and every week when the landscapers come by, you'll find men in my office looking enviously out the window at the guy with the weed-eater.  |
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 09:09:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Actually, Ebone, the more I read your posts in this conversation, the more I think you aren't actually saying much of anything. All your criticisms are pretty empty, full of vague, snide remarks and cliches. It's like you are just using the topic as an excuse to once again vent your strong emotions regarding your personal experiences with poverty and poor people.
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Oh sure venting is part of what I am doing but I am also asking for more information just like you are asking of me.
I really don't think that the study that prompted that article is at all enough. I do undertstand that the author is trying to use the information gathered to brainstorm but quite frankly I do not think that the results, which I will paraphrase as " people get mentally and emotionally burned out sometimes" is at all profound.
I do think that the SEED idea is great, although also not profound, but it could help people learn financial handling skills.
I dunno, I'm stuck between wanting to help and saying "screw 'em". |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 09:15:28 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Hal
The problem is, Ebone, your postings suggest a willingness on your part to characterize all poor people as "lazy", in this generic sense, while at the same time you assert that marfknox characterizes all poor people as being blameless.
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Fair enough. I will try to focus my attention more specifically....I said try!
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 10:50:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Fair enough. I will try to focus my attention more specifically....I said try! |
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try." - Bart Simpson| I am all for funding education with tax $$. I want more of it. I don't recall where I ever mentioned that I don't think education should be funded by tax money. |
Well, public education is inconsistent with people pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps, so you being anti-public-schooling is a reasonable conclusion to draw without you having to state it.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 11:05:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Fair enough. I will try to focus my attention more specifically....I said try! |
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try." - Bart Simpson| I am all for funding education with tax $$. I want more of it. I don't recall where I ever mentioned that I don't think education should be funded by tax money. |
Well, public education is inconsistent with people pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps, so you being anti-public-schooling is a reasonable conclusion to draw without you having to state it.
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How is government providing tools (education) to assist people inconsistent with pulling yourself up by the bootstraps?
I'm all for providing the tools. It is up to the individual how they use the tools. Government cannot regulate how people use the tools though... |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 12:44:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How is government providing tools (education) to assist people inconsistent with pulling yourself up by the bootstraps?
I'm all for providing the tools. It is up to the individual how they use the tools. Government cannot regulate how people use the tools though... |
Well, then we can just send all poor people checks for $100,000 since money is just a tool that can be provided, and it'd be up to the individuals on how they want to use that tool. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 12:53:48 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | I really don't think that the study that prompted that article is at all enough. |
Enough for what? The article doesn't claim that we've got this all understood and here's a full solution to the problem of poverty. And I never claimed any such thing either. It simply provides more information.
| I do undertstand that the author is trying to use the information gathered to brainstorm but quite frankly I do not think that the results, which I will paraphrase as " people get mentally and emotionally burned out sometimes" is at all profound. |
I don't think your paraphrasing is accurate to the article's conclusions. The results of the study are about factors which impact people's ability to make wise choices. It isn't just about generic mental stress. You seem to be insisting that everyone has about the same amount of mental stress, and therefore poor people would not be any more impaired by their mental fatigue. But the mental fatigue in question is not a result of just making any kinds of choices, and the article makes that clear.
| I do think that the SEED idea is great, although also not profound, but it could help people learn financial handling skills. |
So you ARE in favor of social programs if they are shown to help alleviate poverty? Because earlier you said the only thing that could help is "education" (which you did not elaborate on, so it was a pretty vague answer.)
| I dunno, I'm stuck between wanting to help and saying "screw 'em". |
You don't have to like poor people to be rational motivated to help. Poverty is a social problem that impacts the whole society. The more prevalent poverty is, the more the middle and upper classes are also hurt or potentially hurt by it too (we are often victims of crimes and crime is increased by poverty, we pay for prisons and cops and lawyers, we ultimately pay for emergency hospital care, and our society loses out on the human value that is wasted when people who would have been productive members of society end up not being productive. Also, the lower middle classes are always on the verge of becoming victims of poverty, and even if some or most poverty is caused by poor decision making, at least some is the result of bad luck.) So by helping alleviate poverty you are helping yourself. That certainly helps motivate me. I don't like that the unemployment rate among young black men in my city is over 50%. That impacts me directly because it increases drug sales and crime right in my neighborhood and it increases the number of unemployed young dudes hanging out on stoops talking trash and smoking and drinking in the middle of the day when I walk my kid to the playground. I could do what most middle class white people do and move to the burbs, but I'd have to live in half the living space because of the increased housing prices in the burbs. Plus I'd lose out on other benefits of living in the city (my husband doesn't drive so he relies on public transit, for instance.) So I am also selfishly motivated to pay with my tax dollars for programs to get those guys working jobs that pay a living wage - and programs that actually work, not just give political lip service.
And look, I know some people are going to suck no matter what they have. Some rich people suck. Some middle class people suck. This issue isn't about me having some blind love of poor people that is greater than the general love I have for all of my fellow human beings. I don't care WHY someone is poor except as far as that information can probably help to strategically alleviate poverty. I don't give a crap about judging people I don't know personally. I just think this world has enough resources and we humans have the capacity to provide a baseline of food, shelter, health care, security, freedom of movement, and opportunities for social mobility through education and jobs for everyone. That should at least be a goal, and sadly it isn't even a goal! If after all that is provided, somebody just wants to sit on their stoop all day bumming change off people for cheap cigarettes and beer, I really don't care. I certainly would never do it because I seek a more intellectually and emotionally fulfilling experience of life. But to each his or her own. Nobody deserves to be hungry without access to sufficient nourishment. Nobody deserves to sleep under a bridge in the rain because they don't have access to safe shelter. Nobody deserves to intellectually waste away because they don't have access to education. Nobody who can and wants to work deserves to feel useless because they can't find meaningful work that gives them a sense of status and self worth. And nobody deserves to suffer through treatable mental or physical ailments because they can't afford treatment, or to go bankrupt because they had to pay for cancer treatments. I don't care what stupid decisions they have made in life. I just don't think people should have to live beneath a certain quality of life. I think humanity can do better and that we ought to try. We have enough resources on this planet to make that a reality while still allowing for people who achieve more or who gain higher status to accumulate more wealth and luxuries. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/09/2011 13:00:58 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 13:13:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How is government providing tools (education) to assist people inconsistent with pulling yourself up by the bootstraps?
I'm all for providing the tools. It is up to the individual how they use the tools. Government cannot regulate how people use the tools though... |
Well, then we can just send all poor people checks for $100,000 since money is just a tool that can be provided, and it'd be up to the individuals on how they want to use that tool.
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You know exactly what I mean Dave. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 13:17:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
You don't have to like poor people to be rational motivated to help. Poverty is a social problem that impacts the whole society. ... |
Well put, and it's maddening how the ridiculous Randian fetish in this country is managing to obscure this simple truth.
| ... I don't care WHY someone is poor except as far as that information can probably help to strategically alleviate poverty. |
^ This too! ^
I'm uncomfortably reminded of the struggle to get clinical depression taken seriously. As someone who's suffered with this, I've had to overcome my own prejudices against seeking treatment. The conclusions of this research suggest that, in many cases, an impoverished person can no more "pull themselves up," than a clinically depressed person can just decide to "cheer up."
As you say, understanding the causes of indolence no more excuses the individual than it mitigates the effects, but it does suggest that there may be more effective solutions than simply demanding that these people get over themselves.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 13:44:24 [Permalink]
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marfknox,
I know I have mentioned this before but I do think that you and I have very different types of social problems in our cities. That may be a reason we see things so differently.
Here the young black men make millions and millions of dollars. (our city's black population is like 1%....and that is only during football season) The major minorities, which consist of Mexicans and Hmongs, are quite industrious and are thriving here. I never really had racial prejudices to begin with but as the years go by I find myself respecting them more and more (in general). We don't have any major drug or violence problems here.(maybe it has to do with it being so damned cold 9 months a year).
Because of the atmosphere here you really have to be a major fuck-up to not succeed. I mean it probably takes more effort not to succeed.
My only point of this post is give you a clearer picture of where I am coming from. You have painted a pretty good picture of your environment (which I don't think I could even tolerate) so I felt it might be a good idea to do the same for you. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 14:35:52 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | Here the young black men make millions and millions of dollars. (our city's black population is like 1%....and that is only during football season) |
Ironic. Are you aware of the high poverty rate among professional football players after retirement? They may make big bucks while playing, but they typically only play for about 5 years, and typically retire with permanent injuries which will require expensive medical care for the rest of their lives. Most come from backgrounds where they never developed good money management skills (not something their family or teachers ever brought up, so it doesn't even occur to them), and by the time they realize the long-term consequences of a career that only lasts 5 years, it's usually too late and they've squandered their earnings. Lots has been written about the horrible poverty that many former NFL players live in while suffering from serious injuries, including those which cause mental impairment. Because of this problem there are now aid programs that specifically target former players.
| The major minorities, which consist of Mexicans and Hmongs, are quite industrious and are thriving here. I never really had racial prejudices to begin with but as the years go by I find myself respecting them more and more (in general). We don't have any major drug or violence problems here.(maybe it has to do with it being so damned cold 9 months a year). |
82% of Americans live in cities or suburbs of cities. Most city/suburb relationships work pretty much the way they do in Philly - the poor people are largely segregated from the middle class and rich. Most people in the burbs benefit economically in some way from the city (such as working there), but they live and pay taxes in the burbs. Schools and local social programs are funded locally, so the cities end up having crappier schools and inadequate social services, while the burbs have public schools that often rival the best private schools. Based on US demographics, the type of entrenched, generational, urban poverty that I see and speak of is quite common, and when advocates for social programs to fight poverty speak of poverty, it is this sort of poverty that they are usually talking about. In other words, it is even more irrational for you to base your public policy ideas for the whole country on your personal experiences, because your personal experiences are not the most common examples of American poverty. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 15:12:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
You know exactly what I mean Dave. |
Yes, I do, but that's just my point. Both cases (schools and hand-outs) boil down to the government taking our money and giving it to someone else to hopefully (there's no guarantee) improve conditions for the disadvantaged. No matter what "tool" is provided, the end result is more taxes on us privileged folks and an uncertain amount of actual help for those less fortunate. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Free will as a depletable resource
