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Falconjudge
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:41:14 [Permalink]
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As a Christian seeking truth, this interests me greatly. My objective mind tells me that the New Testament was written as both a way to get people to believe in a new religion and to make money (Paul stressed his right to request and redistribute funds), and that the Old Testament is just like the religious texts of every other monotheistic nation in the world, and that both were translated like, 5 times, and heavily edited by a bigoted and bloated Church 500 years after the fact.
My raised, emotional mind tells me thinking this way will send me to Hell.
... What do I believe?  
(Also, I am being completely serious.) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:53:34 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN Falconjudge.
My raised, emotional mind tells me thinking this way will send me to Hell.
... What do I believe? |
Wow! Here's the thing about that. No one here can tell you what to believe. All we can do is to suggest that you apply critical thinking to the claims that you must accept to be a Christian and come to your own conclusion. What we promote here is a way to evaluate claims which you seem to be doing, at least a little bit on your own. It's a method. A tool for determining the truth value of a claim.
What we promote is how to think, not what to think. That part is up to you.
Here is a wonderful guide as and a good place to start:
A Practical Guid to Critical Thinking
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:58:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Falconjudge
As a Christian seeking truth, this interests me greatly. My objective mind tells me that the New Testament was written as both a way to get people to believe in a new religion and to make money (Paul stressed his right to request and redistribute funds), and that the Old Testament is just like the religious texts of every other monotheistic nation in the world, and that both were translated like, 5 times, and heavily edited by a bigoted and bloated Church 500 years after the fact.
My raised, emotional mind tells me thinking this way will send me to Hell.
... What do I believe?
(Also, I am being completely serious.)
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Keep seeking Falconjudge. You have a great start going! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Falconjudge
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 14:04:10 [Permalink]
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But do you have any suggestions on where to go to look?
(Also, it's critical thinking that made me uncomfortable in my faith in the first place. I think I may have that part down. It's causing stress, is the thing.) |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 14:55:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Falconjudge
But do you have any suggestions on where to go to look? |
Not sure what resources you'd be interested in exactly, but I've always found this website to be excellent: The Rejection of Pascal's Wager: A Skeptic's Guide to Christianity. The information there is enlightening. If Christians only knew the real truth behind the historicity of their religion, doubtless they would be much fewer in number. Of course, that's also why they go to such pains to discourage critical thinking with empty threats of hellfire.
(Also, it's critical thinking that made me uncomfortable in my faith in the first place. I think I may have that part down. It's causing stress, is the thing.)
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I imagine you've been indoctrinated from a very early age and that can be stressful and difficult to undo, but it's not impossible. Understand that it does get better. It's like a woman leaving an abusive husband. At first she may feel him lurking around every corner, but eventually his psychological hold on her diminishes. Eventually you'll get to the point where people threatening you with the wrath of their imaginary god will appear more comic than disturbing or frightening. It's just impotent posturing that can only take hold of you if you allow it to.
Perhaps reading other people's deconversion stories might prove cathartic. Richard Dawkins lists some of them on his website: Convert's Corner. At the very least, it's nice to know you aren't the only person who had to undergo something like this.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/08/2011 14:56:42 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 14:59:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Falconjudge
But do you have any suggestions on where to go to look? |
Within yourself. You call yourself a Christian seeking truth. Which is more important to you? Being a Christian, or seeking the truth?
That may seem like a false dichotomy at first, but if Christianity is true, then prioritizing the search for truth will bring you back to Christianity eventually. If you ever happen to leave it in your search for truth. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Falconjudge
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2011 : 15:01:17 [Permalink]
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| Thank you, this might help, |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 16:16:41 [Permalink]
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| Here's a FAQ for non-believers that may be of help. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 18:41:11 [Permalink]
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Falconjudge wrote: | My raised, emotional mind tells me thinking this way will send me to Hell. |
I am soooooo glad that even though I was raised Christian and believed until I was 13, I never once felt fear of hell. I suppose it was part of the ideology I was raised with, but it was never emphasized, never used as a threatening tool by the religious teachers and leaders I encountered when I was young, and although I was aware of the concept of hell, I was so indoctrinated to understand God as a loving, benevolent, and forgiving entity, that I just sort of assumed that Jesus saving the world meant that everyone was saved.
It seems obvious to me that your faith is based in fear. All I can advice is for you to try to be really honest with yourself emotionally as well as intellectually, and ask yourself, do you honestly believe that the end-all, be-all meaning of existence is some anthropomorphic deity who ultimately puts all human souls in one of two totally extreme state (heaven or hell) for all of eternity? C'mon, man, a hell or heaven for that matter, as real and literal places our "souls" (whatever they are) go when we die and then remain for all of eternity (which would make our lives here on earth less than a blink of the eye) are silly. The only reason a literal heaven and hell seem plausible at all to most people is because most people don't think to hard about either. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/08/2011 18:43:08 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 20:30:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Falconjudge
But do you have any suggestions on where to go to look? |
Within yourself. You call yourself a Christian seeking truth. Which is more important to you? Being a Christian, or seeking the truth?
That may seem like a false dichotomy at first, but if Christianity is true, then prioritizing the search for truth will bring you back to Christianity eventually. If you ever happen to leave it in your search for truth.
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That's a brilliant observation Dave. So neat in its simplicity.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Falconjudge
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 21:03:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Falconjudge
But do you have any suggestions on where to go to look? |
Within yourself. You call yourself a Christian seeking truth. Which is more important to you? Being a Christian, or seeking the truth?
That may seem like a false dichotomy at first, but if Christianity is true, then prioritizing the search for truth will bring you back to Christianity eventually. If you ever happen to leave it in your search for truth.
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... But the reasearch I've done so far, heck, in my study Bible, points to it being wrong! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 21:33:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Falconjudge
... But the reasearch I've done so far, heck, in my study Bible, points to it being wrong! |
Well, if it's wrong about Hell, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Do you think the Bible might be right about some of its supernatural claims? If so, how could you tell which ones? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 05:40:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Falconjudge
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Falconjudge
But do you have any suggestions on where to go to look? |
Within yourself. You call yourself a Christian seeking truth. Which is more important to you? Being a Christian, or seeking the truth?
That may seem like a false dichotomy at first, but if Christianity is true, then prioritizing the search for truth will bring you back to Christianity eventually. If you ever happen to leave it in your search for truth.
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... But the reasearch I've done so far, heck, in my study Bible, points to it being wrong!
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Congrats. You've discovered what I did almost 30 years ago. The doctorine does not follow the document.
It was the kind of disconnect that ultimately led me away from Christendom. I asked questions of Church leaders and found their answers to be evasive and, in some cases, an appeal to a magic decoder ring that they had access to that I did not.
There is nothing wrong with persuing spiritual truth. It leads people in different directions. Some are led by truth to atheism. Some to other religions. Some back to their own religion.
It is scary because you don't know where the destination is. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 07:15:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Falconjudge
But do you have any suggestions on where to go to look? |
Not sure what resources you'd be interested in exactly, but I've always found this website to be excellent: The Rejection of Pascal's Wager: A Skeptic's Guide to Christianity. The information there is enlightening. If Christians only knew the real truth behind the historicity of their religion, doubtless they would be much fewer in number. Of course, that's also why they go to such pains to discourage critical thinking with empty threats of hellfire.
(Also, it's critical thinking that made me uncomfortable in my faith in the first place. I think I may have that part down. It's causing stress, is the thing.)
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I imagine you've been indoctrinated from a very early age and that can be stressful and difficult to undo, but it's not impossible. Understand that it does get better. It's like a woman leaving an abusive husband. At first she may feel him lurking around every corner, but eventually his psychological hold on her diminishes. Eventually you'll get to the point where people threatening you with the wrath of their imaginary god will appear more comic than disturbing or frightening. It's just impotent posturing that can only take hold of you if you allow it to.
Perhaps reading other people's deconversion stories might prove cathartic. Richard Dawkins lists some of them on his website: Convert's Corner. At the very least, it's nice to know you aren't the only person who had to undergo something like this.
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I also recommend the Pascal's Wager site.
Another one you may like, which I find very interesting and informative, is The Jesus Puzzle ( http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/ ) by Earl Doherty. He is a proponent of the Mythicist school of thought: that Jesus never existed but was originally considered by Christians to be a spiritual being who's actions in the Bible were only then being revealed by God. Later Christians came to believe in an actual earthly ministry, and this view eventually replaced the earlier belief. And he is no nutcase. He is mentioned quite favorably by the likes of Richard Price (of the Jesus Seminar) and Richard Carrier, both well respected scholars who are impressed by his research.
Also, any books by Ricard Price, or Bart Ehrman.
And, yes, Paul never physically met Jesus. Saying otherwise just displays one's ignorance. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Falconjudge
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 08:48:03 [Permalink]
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| ... I... Well, there goes my last 18 years... |
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Is this the best you got
