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 Anti Vaxers are sending viruses through the mail.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2011 :  22:16:14  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pox parties taken to the next (illegal) level

...As Mike the Mad Biologist points out, this is little different from bioterrorism, other than in intent. For one thing, the parents doing this seem utterly oblivious to the potential danger to the postal workers or workers at FedEx, UPS, or other shipping company that they use to send these biohazards. One also wonders if the parents use anything approaching proper technique to insert their “gifts” into the packages so that they don’t get it on their fingers and thus contaminate the outside of the package. In any case, should the package be damaged or should the baggy fail, so much for containment, and anyone who comes into contact with the package is at risk. That’s why there are so many federal regulations about shipping biohazardous substances across state lines. Indeed, when it was pointed out that shipping biohazards like bodily fluids from an individual infected with varicella across state lines is a federal offense, this was the reaction:

A Facebook post reads, “I got a Pox Package in mail just moments ago. I have two lollipops and a wet rag and spit.” Another woman warns, “This is a federal offense to intentionally mail a contagion.”

Another woman answers, “Tuck it inside a zip lock baggy and then put the baggy in the envelope Don’t put anything identifying it as pox.”


The level of irresponsibility and lack of concern for fellow human beings is staggering. As Todd points out, it’s not just varicella that might be in there? How does anyone know that there aren’t other pathogens in there? They are utterly self-absorbed, selfish, and lack concern for anyone but themselves and their own family. Indeed, look at the interview with the first mother in the video; she openly discusses sending pox through the mail and doesn’t seem to think it’s a big deal, all the while rambling on about how it’s the parents’ “choice.” The second mother, when confronted by a reporter, out and out lies about what was on her Facebook page, denying that she ever sent pox through the mail. It’s a mindset that was perfectly described as a Me! Mine! Mommy mindset that boils down to, basically, the right to be selfish...


This stuff just blows my mind. As though it weren't bad enough that they push anti-vax pseudo-science.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2011 :  22:39:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also over here.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2011 :  22:50:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Also over here.
Hmmm... I didn't know Orac is David Gorski.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2011 :  22:53:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Hmmm... I didn't know Orac is David Gorski.
It's been a really badly kept secret for years.

But I was just trying to point out that the topic was already being discussed in a thread here, not out a blogger.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2011 :  23:05:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Kil

Hmmm... I didn't know Orac is David Gorski.
It's been a really badly kept secret for years.

But I was just trying to point out that the topic was already being discussed in a thread here, not out a blogger.
Oh well... As dense as I am, I'd say he outed himself.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Hal
Skeptic Friend

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  07:35:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Hal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a good article in the Nashville Tennessean about this, featuring some choice quotes from the local U.S. Attorney:

Can you imagine getting a package in the mail from this complete stranger that you know from Facebook because you joined a group, and say here, drink this purported spit from some other kid?

Martin said it is a federal crime to send diseases or viruses across state lines, whether through the U.S. Postal Service or private services like FedEx or UPS. Sending the lollipops would be illegal under the same law that makes it illegal to mail contagions like anthrax. He said a conviction could lead to a sentence from less than a year to 20 years in prison.


The latter quote begs the question, what about intra-state commerce? Surely, it's just as illegal to deliberately mail contagions within the state?

The article also quotes a medical professional who points out that, ironically, while this is actually not a very effective way to transmit chicken pox, it might work pretty well for "more dangerous viruses, including hepatitis."

Prosecutor to parents: Mailing chickenpox illegal

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  10:12:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it illegal to lick the stamps?

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Hal
Skeptic Friend

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  10:16:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Hal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Is it illegal to lick the stamps?


Do they still sell "lick-on" stamps?
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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  10:27:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My sister in law is a pathologist and during residency training, she had to do an autopsy on a child. The child died from staph infection after scratching his chicken pox. anyone who refuses to get their child vaccinated should have to see an autopsy like that. They just don't realize how serious these diseases can be.

The other issue is that being exposed to a disease doesn't always give one enough immunity. I was exposed to chickenpox as a child but didn't get it. I then got chickenpox at age 27 which is more dangerous. It is also much more widespread when you get it as an adult (all I wanted to do all day was sit in oatmeal baths). I had planned on getting the vaccine but didn't get around to it soon enough. I wouldn't have to go through all that if I had had the vaccine.

On a lighter note: my brother got chicken pox when he was 3. When my mom told him he had chicken pox, he complained that he didn't want chickens all over him

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  10:58:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Hal

Originally posted by sailingsoul

Is it illegal to lick the stamps?


Do they still sell "lick-on" stamps?

I believe they do. One can still buy envelopes that "need wetting" too.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  12:24:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
alienist, you make a good point. Just as there is a teeny tiny percentage of kids who have a severe, bad reaction to vaccinations, there is also a small percentage of kids who have a severe response to even "minor" diseases like Chicken Pox. Don't get why anti-Vax people think one risk is okay, but the other is not.

I suspect that while they'd never admit it, a good number of anti-Vax people deep down know damn well what they are doing, and they are doing it on purpose for selfish reasons. In other words, they understand that their kids are largely protected from actually catching all those diseases because most other kids are vaccinated (the whole herd protection thing.) So they get the selfish best of both worlds - no risk of a bad reaction to the vaccine and also only a tiny risk of getting the disease. Of course this doesn't account for whole communities of people where vaccination rates are low, but I suspect that in most places where overall vaccination rates are still very high, there are some asshole parents who don't vaccinate their kids largely based on this reasoning. And the they just spout all the high and mighty anti-vax bullshit to cover their selfish asses.

Given the prevalence of Shingles in adults who had Chicken Pox as a kid, and how much more severe it can be, especially for the elderly, that for me reason enough to vaccinate my kids for Chicken Pox and try to avoid it altogether.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  12:27:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and in reading about this I found out there is a Shingles vaccination that gives over 60% protection against developing that disease. After hearing about what my aunt went through when she developed Shingles in her 40's, I think I'll be getting that vaccination for myself. Eesh.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  12:42:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by Hal

Originally posted by sailingsoul

Is it illegal to lick the stamps?


Do they still sell "lick-on" stamps?

I believe they do. One can still buy envelopes that "need wetting" too.


Domestic Mail Manual

Section 601


10.17 Infectious Substances (Hazard Class 6, Division 6.2)
10.17.1 General
Division 6.2 materials include infectious substances, biological products, regulated medical waste, sharps medical waste, used health care products, and forensic materials. Division 6.2 materials are not permitted in international mail or domestic mail, except when they are intended for medical or veterinary use, research, or laboratory certification related to the public health; and only when such materials are properly prepared for mailing to withstand shocks, pressure changes, and other conditions related to ordinary handling in transit. Mailable Division 6.2 materials sent as international mail must meet the standards in the International Mail Manual. For domestic mail, mailable Division 6.2 materials must meet the applicable standards in 10.17. Unless otherwise noted, all mailable Division 6.2 materials must meet the mail preparation requirements for air transportation.

10.17.2 Definitions
The terms used in the standards for Division 6.2 materials are defined as follows:

a. Infectious substance means a material known or reasonably expected to contain a pathogen. A pathogen is a microorganism that can cause disease in humans or animals. Examples of pathogens include bacteria, viruses, fungi, and other infectious agents. An infectious substance must be assigned to one of the following two categories:

1. Category A: An infectious substance transported in a form capable of causing permanent disability or life-threatening or fatal disease in otherwise healthy humans or animals when exposure occurs. Category A infectious substances are not mailable. A Category A infectious substance is assigned the identification number UN 2814 or UN 2900, based on the known medical history or symptoms of the source patient or animal, endemic local conditions, or professional judgment concerning the individual circumstances of the source human or animal.

2. Category B: An infectious substance that does not meet the criteria for inclusion in Category A. A mailpiece known or suspected to contain a Category B infectious substance must bear the proper shipping name “Biological substance, Category B” on the address side of the mailpiece and must be assigned to and marked with identification number UN 3373 or, for regulated medical waste and sharps medical waste, identification number UN 3291.

b. Biological product means a virus, therapeutic serum, toxin, antitoxin, vaccine, blood, blood component or derivative, allergenic product, or analogous product or arsphenamine or derivative of arsphenamine (or any other trivalent arsenic compound) intended to prevent, treat, or cure a disease or condition of humans or animals. A biological product includes a material subject to regulation under 42 U.S.C. 262 or 21 U.S.C. 151-159. Unless otherwise excepted, mark these mailpieces with identification number UN 3373 when they contain a biological product known or reasonably expected to contain a pathogen that meets the definition of a Category B infectious substance.

c. Cultures are infectious substances that result from a process by which pathogens are intentionally propagated. This definition does not include a human or animal patient specimen as defined in 10.17.2e.

d. Exempt human or animal specimen means a human or animal sample (including, but not limited to, secreta, excreta, blood and its components, tissue and tissue fluids, and body parts) transported for routine testing not related to the diagnosis of an infectious disease. Typically, exempt human specimens are specimens for which there is a low probability that the sample is infectious, such as specimens for drug or alcohol testing; cholesterol testing; blood glucose level testing; prostate-specific antigens (PSA) testing; testing to monitor heart, kidney, or liver function; pregnancy testing; and testing for diagnosis of noninfectious diseases such as cancer biopsies. Exempt human or animal specimens are not subject to regulation as hazardous materials but must be packaged according to 10.17.9.

e. Patient specimen means material that is collected directly from humans or animals and transported for purposes such as diagnosis and research. Patient specimens include excreta, secreta, blood and its components, tissue and tissue swabs, body parts, and specimens in transport media (such as transwabs, culture media, and blood culture bottles).

f. Regulated medical waste, for USPS purposes, means a soft waste material (other than a sharp) derived from the medical treatment, diagnosis, immunization, or biomedical research of a human or animal. Soft medical waste includes items such as used rubber gloves, swabs, gauze, tongue depressors, and other similar material. Mark these mailpieces with identification number UN 3291.

g. Sharps medical waste, for USPS purposes, means a medical waste object that is capable of cutting or penetrating skin or packaging material and that is contaminated with a pathogen or may become contaminated with a pathogen derived from the medical treatment, diagnosis, immunization, or biomedical research of a human or animal. Sharps include used medical waste such as needles, syringes, scalpels, broken glass, culture slides, culture dishes, broken capillary tubes, broken rigid plastic, and exposed ends of dental wires. Mark these mailpieces with identification number UN 3291.

h. Toxin means a Division 6.1 material from a plant, animal, or bacterial source. A toxin containing an infectious substance or a toxin contained in an infectious substance must be classed as Division 6.2, described as an infectious substance, and assigned to UN 2814, UN 2900, or UN 3373, as appropriate. A toxin known or suspected to contain a Category A infectious substance is not mailable. A toxin known or suspected to contain a Category B infectious substance must be marked UN 3373 and packaged under 10.17.5. Toxins from plant, animal, or bacterial sources that do not contain an infectious substance, and are not contained in an infectious substance, may be considered for classification as Division 6.1 toxic substances under 10.16.

i. Used health care product means a medical, diagnostic, or research device or piece of equipment, or a personal care product used by consumers, medical professionals, or pharmaceutical providers that does not meet the definition of a diagnostic specimen, biological product, regulated medical waste, or sharps waste, is contaminated with potentially infectious body fluids or materials, and is not decontaminated or disinfected to remove or mitigate the infectious hazard prior to transport.


From

http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm

Since they do not mark it as required and do not obtain the necessary permits, it is illegal. Sub section 10.17.2.b.

Stamps are excluded from this although there is a section concerning rural pickup from a quarantined house under section 508, subsection 2.2.4.

http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/508.htm#1058021

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  17:54:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, anyone think that Homeland Security will get on those idiot's cases?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9668 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  18:23:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the_ignored

So, anyone think that Homeland Security will get on those idiot's cases?

Why should they? They aren't arabs or muslims...


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  19:04:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Twilight zone lives, it never stops. To steal a line, they should have to wear a sign, " Stupid " on their forehead. So you can see them coming and cross the street or duck into a store.

Intelligent design my butt!

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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