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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2011 :  16:21:54  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We should all be happy at the good job the Police are doing. Expect more of the same. I surely can't imagine why this didn't make the national news. God bless our police, the servant of law abiding people. God bless the failed continuing war on drug. Keep up the good work officers. You have nothing to fear when you fuck up, don't worry about that, the real American's has got your back. Carry on!


There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  07:24:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

We should all be happy at the good job the Police are doing. Expect more of the same. I surely can't imagine why this didn't make the national news. God bless our police, the servant of law abiding people. God bless the failed continuing war on drug. Keep up the good work officers. You have nothing to fear when you fuck up, don't worry about that, the real American's has got your back. Carry on!




And no one saw this coming after the Supreme Court mangled the Fourth Amendment with Kentucky v King.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-1272.pdf

Then the Indiana Supreme Court under Barnes v Indiana claims no right to resist police acting illegally.

Start looking for stories of increased police shoot outs with peole defending themselves against rogue police officers.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  09:42:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am tired of repeating this, but I will say it until someone listens: this war on drugs has cause more misery, suffering, and death, than the drugs themselves ever have. Undeniable fact.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  10:01:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Valiant Dancer.....

Start looking for stories of increased police shoot outs with people defending themselves against rogue police officers.
Yes. Rogue cops, and bullythug police forces, clubs and pepperspray, extensive use of military equipment and tactics, etc.

As I daily scan a number of news sources from the NY Times thru the hustings all the way to the LA Times, I see an alarming uptick in police brutality and aggression all over the country. It appears to be pretty generalized throughout the whole US. It is almost like there is some sort of Gestapo mentality spreading rapidly throughout the entire (actually, mostly urban) law enforcement community.

Do you think that there is a coordination of some sort going on?

Is there some sort of political undercurrent going here that is not immediately apparent? Nut conservative, Repuglican political undercurrent?

What do you think is going on, Val?
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  10:42:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
These raids are not the acts of rogue cops. What could possible suggest that it is? And these raids are not the police working off a sugar rush induced from a visit to a local doughnut shop either. They are business as usual.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  10:56:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Valiant Dancer.....

Start looking for stories of increased police shoot outs with people defending themselves against rogue police officers.
Yes. Rogue cops, and bullythug police forces, clubs and pepperspray, extensive use of military equipment and tactics, etc.

As I daily scan a number of news sources from the NY Times thru the hustings all the way to the LA Times, I see an alarming uptick in police brutality and aggression all over the country. It appears to be pretty generalized throughout the whole US. It is almost like there is some sort of Gestapo mentality spreading rapidly throughout the entire (actually, mostly urban) law enforcement community.


I think the Harvard authority experiment has gone on too long. Local LEO's used to be concerned over backlash from rights violations. Search and seizure violations were considered really bad. Since 9/11, people have become afraid and willing to give up rights such as those in the 4th.

With the TSA being shown to be rife with abuse and unpunished that any other LEO would be summarily investigated and fired for, the LEO's are now less inclined to be concerned with rights violations. Kentucky v King said that the 4th amendment no longer applies.


Do you think that there is a coordination of some sort going on?

Is there some sort of political undercurrent going here that is not immediately apparent? Nut conservative, Repuglican political undercurrent?

What do you think is going on, Val?


Not so much coordination but the logical progression of excessive force being pushed by "anti-crime" politicians.

Unfortunately, I now have to consider whether or not I will have to defend myself against a new gang of armed thugs that have badges.

(edited because whether has an e in it)

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 11/28/2011 19:04:33
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  14:27:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sailingsoul....

These raids are not the acts of rogue cops. What could possible suggest that it is?
No, I did not mean nor say that the OWS raids were the results of rogue (single) cops acting singly or alone.

However there have been many more such accounts of one or two real cop thugs acting singly, recently in the national news; together with much news of the concerted brutality of large police forces acting against peaceful protestors all over the US.

In a sense, the brute that was spray painting with pepper spray, together with one other, were acting way outside and way in excess of the actions of the the rest of the cops at that event - bad as those were.

My point really was to ask, what is causing the very real increase in police brutality of all kinds - seemingly growing very rapidly in recent months all over the US? Do they all talk to each other nationally and decide to act in concert?

I have read that there has been a very high increase in the availability of, and the purchase and use of heavy-duty military gear by police departments all across the US.

Perhaps it also involves the already military-minded police mentality straining to get and use all the military lethal and highly destructive toys that are coming out regularly from the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about years ago?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  20:49:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Val. I think you mean Philip Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Experiment, or the Milgram Authority electric shock experiment which took place at Yale. Those, and especially a movie and a book about the Stanford Prison Experiment were in this weeks Skeptic Summary. Here's my Evil Pick, which I think is enough related to this thread to post it here.



Quiet Rage: The Stanford Prison Experiment, a documentary film — One of SFN’s contributing writers, Michelle Shires, suggested that I use Philip Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Experiment as an Evil Pick. At first I wondered what that controversial experiment has to do with skepticism? Weren’t the results of this demonstration of our possible willingness to set our humanity aside in favor of following people in authority, even cruel people, or worse, becoming cruel when given the authority to be cruel, more suited to those whose main focus is in the area of psychology? But it hit me. What does it really mean to be an authority figure? And how susceptible are we to set reason, rationality and even what we thought were our own morals aside, even while acknowledging them to ourselves, if we are told to do so by someone in a lab coat or a uniform? How fragile is our rationality in stressful situations? What are otherwise rational and decent people willing to do when placed in an environment that is neither rational nor decent?


Was what we saw at Abu Ghraib what we should have expected to see? Or how about the pepper spraying of Occupy Wall Street protesters only a couple of days ago at University of California, Davis? Sure, those incidents are shocking. But given what we know from the Stanford Prison Experiment, should those kinds of incidences really be so unexpected?

And look. Just to make things clear, I am not bringing up that kind of abuse of authority as a political point. At least some of the students who took part in Philip Zimbardo’ experiment were likely left-leaning Viet Nam war protesters, or student protesters of other causes, because that’s how many of us in the Sixties rolled. And especially in the bay area.


Skeptics pride themselves on their ability to use critical thinking, logic and science as a way to sort out what is real and what isn’t. And to a large extent, hopefully, that rationality guides us in our dealings with others. So I guess my question, after having watched the documentary and having read through all of the links in this introduction to my pick, is this. Are skeptics less susceptible to abandoning reason and good behavior in the kind of circumstances that we see in the Standford Prison Experiment than those who have not nurtured the skills that we value so highly? That’s an open question, I think. And if my question leads to a discussion on our forum, all the better.


I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that other studies have been done leading to varying results and that criticism of the study should also be looked at.

Here’s the intro to the film:
It’s important not to think of this as prisoner and guard in a real prison. The important issue is the metaphor prisoner and guard. What does it mean to be a prisoner? What does it mean to be a guard? And the guard is somebody who limits the freedom of someone else, uses the power in their role to control and dominate someone else, and that’s what this study is about.

In the summer of 1971, Philip Zimbardo, Craig Haney, and Curtis Banks carried out a psychological experiment to test a simple question. What happens when you put good people in an evil place — does humanity win over evil, or does evil triumph?

To explore this question, college student volunteers were pretested and randomly assigned to play the role of prisoner or guard in a simulated prison at Stanford University. Although the students were mentally healthy and knew they were taking part in an experiment, some guards soon [became] sadistic and the prisoners showed signs of acute stress and depression.

After only six days, the planned two-week study spun out of control and had to be ended to prevent further abuse of the prisoners. This dramatic demonstration of the power of social situations is relevant to many institutional settings, such as the Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq.

On to the film: Quiet Rage: The Stanford Prison Experiment.

For more information, please see The Stanford Prison Experiment Web Page.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2011 :  07:24:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Val. I think you mean Philip Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Experiment, or the Milgram Authority electric shock experiment which took place at Yale.


It was Stanford. Somehow, Harvard got stuck in my head.

I was trying to remember who did the electroshock experiment but that one also came to mind. The Stanford experiment is what I believe matches the current situation. The professor needs to step in and stop the experiment. (Just like they had to in the Stanford experiment.)

There is a rather odd movie called "The Experiment" which explores the Stanford experiment with a twist where the monitors leave for some reason and don't come back.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0997152/

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it" -- William Pitt, the Elder, The Earl of Chatham, speech to the UK House of Lords, 1770

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  16:32:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

No, I did not mean nor say that the OWS raids were the results of rogue (single) cops acting singly or alone.
Oh! OK. But I think it's not by the average cops. The occupy sprayings have almost all been by higher ranking one's. It has been the white shirt supervisors in NYC doing it and at UC Davis it was a lieutenant.


However there have been many more such accounts of one or two real cop thugs acting singly, recently in the national news; together with much news of the concerted brutality of large police forces acting against peaceful protestors all over the US.

In a sense, the brute that was spray painting with pepper spray, together with one other, were acting way outside and way in excess of the actions of the the rest of the cops at that event - bad as those were.
Let's hope with all the bad press that shit will be on the decline. Some occupy cities have really dealt with their demonstrations very civilly and quite properly with their police. The 'civil' police chiefs haven't gotten the same press sadly. NPR had a show yesterday with a few police chiefs and they are saying the police can really escalate the violence by their excessive actions. They were all singing the same tune and I like what I heard. I hope calmer tactics will become more the rule than the exception in the future. There is really no need to make the arrests such a big deal. I'm quite hopeful they are rethinking their tactics. I'm thinking next summer will tell which way wins out. People are networking digitally more every day and that is a factor that was not so until most recently.


My point really was to ask, what is causing the very real increase in police brutality of all kinds - seemingly growing very rapidly in recent months all over the US? Do they all talk to each other nationally and decide to act in concert?
Is it really the case ? Things quite frequently "seem" to occur in groupings, don't they? Ever hear of the saying "bad news come's in three's"? Or when a child is killed with a hand gun, there is often a flurry of that kind of stories in the press for a while. I've seem to notice. Good question though. It could be the press going with a theme for a while, it happens.


I have read that there has been a very high increase in the availability of, and the purchase and use of heavy-duty military gear by police departments all across the US.
Paid for by Home Land Security, I assume.


Perhaps it also involves the already military-minded police mentality straining to get and use all the military lethal and highly destructive toys that are coming out regularly from the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about years ago?
And our politicians haven't taken heed. I guess that's what people do. Keep making the same mistakes until they,,,, don't. Vote me king and I would change that.
The repub's say they want a leaner government but when it comes to defense they never spend enough.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2011 :  21:40:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, here's some good news:

But as tensions build between Occupiers and Big Brother, what’s also true is that individual officers are increasingly concerned about their role in combating Occupy. Even in cities where the overall police response has been barbaric, there’s a growing sense that cops who’ve been charged with breaking camps are unnerved by such orders.

Earlier this week, Los Angeles authorities avoided a riot by working with protesters, and even thanking them publicly for demonstrating their right to free speech. On a smaller scale, last month in Oregon an officer was seen sobbing in his combat gear while raiding a Portland encampment. In October, Albany police — along with state troopers — refused to arrest protesters despite pressure from the city’s mayor and New York Governor Andrew Cuomo.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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