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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  02:26:39  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Warning: I am not a real scientist!

I've been looking into some of the most recent information about wolves, early dogs, and how, when and where some gray wolves might have become village dogs. I've long had a hunch that the prehistory of early Homo sapiens and the dog were interactive and intimately linked, and that understanding one would help to understand the other.

This kind of stuff fascinates me.

It turns out that the dog may have been first domesticated from the gray wolf about 16,000 years ago, somewhere in East Asia south of the Yangtze River. That puts the origin of the dog in Southern China or South-east Asia, at a time when Neolithic people there began first cultivating rice.

Now, here are some interesting data points:

1. Indigenous Australians settled that island continent some 50,000 years ago. (Mungo Man settled there even earlier, but is now generally considered a separate hominid, genetically separate from Indigenous Australians, or "Aborigines".) Indigenous Australians are considered to be closely linked in heritage and genetics to the Melanesian people of New Guinea and Melanesia. And probably to scattered "Negrito" peoples scattered about South-east Asia, including the Philippines. So imagine a "Proto-Melanesian" migration about 40 k. years ago, traveling south and east from Asia into the then-landlocked islands of Indonesia, the Philippines, with some of these trekkers going onward to Oz.


Indigenous Australian. At least 46,000 dogless years.

2. The Austronesian people began spreading south and east from Southern East Asia and/or South-east Asia around 12-8000 years ago. Their descendants include the Polynesians, the Malays, at least some of the indigenous Formosans, and the Filipinos. They got as far as New Guinea about 4,000 years ago.


Atayal (Austonesian) woman from Formosa.

3. The Dingo dog first appeared (maybe as few as one pregnant female) in Australia around 4,000 years ago, at a time when Australia was not connected to Asia by a land bridge. Dingos fall within mtDNA clade A29, as do other similar "native" dogs found from New Guinea to North America.


Dingo.

My personal conclusions/guesses are these:

1. The Proto-Melanesians, including the Indigenous Australians, were probably the first wave of modern humans to get to Asia. They had no dogs, and may not have originally have needed deep-seagoing craft. They are now represented by the Indigenous Australians, the Papuans of New Guinea, the Melanesians, and at least some of the South-east Asian Negritos.

2. The Austronesians carried both rice-cultivation and domesticated dogs to most of the places they settled. They probably introduced the dingo to Australia.

(Also, see "The Genetic Structure of Pacific Islanders".)

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/30/2012 20:29:46

Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  05:17:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This kind of stuff fascinates me too Halfmooner.

Here is a good one I found the other day telling how dogs are more like us socially than other primates.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  05:25:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

This kind of stuff fascinates me too Halfmooner.

Here is a good one I found the other day telling how dogs are more like us socially than other primates.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who loves such stuff. And thanks for that wonderful link! (Actually, it's one I contributed to a couple of weeks back for the "Elsewhere" section of Skeptic Summary. What goes around, comes around, as they say.)

By the way, if I saw the dingo in the OP above on the street here, I would think it a very typical local "askal" village dog. Millions of them here look just like dingos:


Philippine askal.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/26/2012 05:40:53
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  06:15:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

This kind of stuff fascinates me too Halfmooner.

Here is a good one I found the other day telling how dogs are more like us socially than other primates.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who loves such stuff. And thanks for that wonderful link! (Actually, it's one I contributed to a couple of weeks back for the "Elsewhere" section of Skeptic Summary. What goes around, comes around, as they say.)

By the way, if I saw the dingo in the OP above on the street here, I would think it a very typical local "askal" village dog. Millions of them here look just like dingos:


Philippine askal.



Whoops! That must be where I found that story.

I thought I saw you mention recently that your little Missy became a victim of the dog meat trade. Is that true or were you being facetious?

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  06:18:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For some reason the conclusion that I come to after reading these articles is that the Labrador Retreiver is the most perfect of all canines.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  06:24:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

. . .

I thought I saw you mention recently that your little Missy became a victim of the dog meat trade. Is that true or were you being facetious?
I wasn't joking. That does appear to be what happened to Missy, unfortunately.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  06:25:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

For some reason the conclusion that I come to after reading these articles is that the Labrador Retreiver is the most perfect of all canines.
It's surely a fine dog. I've known some with great intelligence and sweet dispositions. But in my opinion, the finest dog is whatever one is with you.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/26/2012 06:29:04
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  06:29:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

. . .

I thought I saw you mention recently that your little Missy became a victim of the dog meat trade. Is that true or were you being facetious?
I wasn't joking. That does appear to be what happened to Missy, unfortunately.


I am very sorry for your loss. Are there any laws about dog meat in the phillipines?

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  06:38:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

. . .

I thought I saw you mention recently that your little Missy became a victim of the dog meat trade. Is that true or were you being facetious?
I wasn't joking. That does appear to be what happened to Missy, unfortunately.


I am very sorry for your loss. Are there any laws about dog meat in the phillipines?
Thank you. I still shudder to think of the manner in which Missy was probably treated prior to butchering.

Yes, there is a strict national law against the practice, a law that is almost never enforced. Dog lovers here are trying to get the laws enforced.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  08:18:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Warning: I am not a real scientist!

I've been looking into some of the most recent information about wolves, early dogs, and how, when and where some gray wolves might have become village dogs. I've long had a hunch that the prehistory of early Homo sapiens and the dog were interactive and intimately linked, and that understanding one would help to understand the other.

Richard Dawkins touches on this subject in his book "The Greatest Show on Earth". His argument is that the initial domestication of the dog was evolutionary rather than an intentional effort by man. Scavenging the village dump for something to eat forced it to balance their natural fear of the large bipedal predator, against the easy life of not having to hunt for food. Eventually their instictual fear of man was selected out, or at least reduced enough for man and dog to enter a closer relationship.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  08:38:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Warning: I am not a real scientist!

I've been looking into some of the most recent information about wolves, early dogs, and how, when and where some gray wolves might have become village dogs. I've long had a hunch that the prehistory of early Homo sapiens and the dog were interactive and intimately linked, and that understanding one would help to understand the other.

Richard Dawkins touches on this subject in his book "The Greatest Show on Earth". His argument is that the initial domestication of the dog was evolutionary rather than an intentional effort by man. Scavenging the village dump for something to eat forced it to balance their natural fear of the large bipedal predator, against the easy life of not having to hunt for food. Eventually their instictual fear of man was selected out, or at least reduced enough for man and dog to enter a closer relationship.
Indeed, that is Dr. Raymond Coppinger's theory, and it sounds completely right to me, a brilliant insight. Coppinger thinks that gray wolves hung around human garbage middens, and gradually evolved shorter and shorter "flight distances" over time. This, and not dogs' social aptitude, "tamed" them according to Coppinger.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  09:18:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have any of you seen the project started in Russia in the 50's? Unfortunately I am not in a position to search for references at the moment but I will after I get home tonight.

They bred foxes and selected for both friendliness and aggressivenes. It only took a few generations to come up with a domesticated fox. They also engineered some seriously ferocious foxes. An unexpected thing happened. Both groups of foxes became very different looking than their original forefathers . They now have foxes every bit as friendly and trainable as a dog.

It's absolutely fascinating. I will find sources to share after I get home tonight.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  09:30:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
National Geographic has an article on dog genetics and domestication of dogs in this month's issue. I skimmed it but think it said domestic dogs came from the Middle East. the article also talks about breeding and genetics of dogs.

I think the more mixed breed a dog is the more it looks like an "askal"

I read the story about the foxes in Russia. The more socialized breed of foxes tend to look more like dogs with ears and noses that are not so pointy

I had a greyhound and it always amused me to compare his overbite with a bull dog's underbite. There is something about a dog's genetics that makes it easy to breed for such wide varying traits and such variation in sizes.


The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  10:02:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I notice that National Geographic says the dingo's range includes much of mainland and insular South-east Asia.

So are the dingos (or some dingos) simply the original regional species of gray wolf, or are the wild-living dingos feral descendants of the early domesticated dogs? (I can't believe that the Austronesians brought wild wolves on a boat to Australia.) I suspect that our Filipino askals (both feral and domestic) are the dingos shown on the National Geographic map.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  10:09:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Have any of you seen the project started in Russia in the 50's? Unfortunately I am not in a position to search for references at the moment but I will after I get home tonight.

They bred foxes and selected for both friendliness and aggressivenes. It only took a few generations to come up with a domesticated fox.

It's absolutely fascinating. I will find sources to share after I get home tonight.
That's cool stuff, indeed. Apparently the genes that allowed domestication were located on chromosomes near the coat-color genes, so when selecting for tameness (useful in raising foxes for their fur, they got commercially worthless multicolored pets by accident.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2012 :  10:13:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by alienist

National Geographic has an article on dog genetics and domestication of dogs in this month's issue. I skimmed it but think it said domestic dogs came from the Middle East.
. . .

Yeah, there are still competing theories, but I personally think the genetics studies put the South-east Asian origin theory at the head of the pack.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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