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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2012 :  05:16:57  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The creation/evolution debate has hit my area.

I have mixed feeling about it. On one hand I hate the fact that the creationists are getting airtime. On the other hand I think that if they keep getting smacked down publicly it might get something through their skulls.

What do you think?

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring

chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2012 :  05:46:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll borrow from Hitchen's Letters to a Young Contrarian again:
John Stuart Mill (who by a nice chance was Bertrand Russell’s godfather) said that even if all were agreed on an essential proposition it would be essential to give an ear to the one person who did not, lest people forget how to justify their original agreement...John Milton in his Areopagitica proclaimed that, whatever one believed to be the right, it should be exposed to the claims of the wrong, because only in a fair and open fight could the right claim or expect vindication.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2012 :  06:41:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

The creation/evolution debate has hit my area.

I have mixed feeling about it. On one hand I hate the fact that the creationists are getting airtime. On the other hand I think that if they keep getting smacked down publicly it might get something through their skulls.

What do you think?


Dress up in full pirate regalia and insist that if they want it taught in schools then your religion of Pastafarianism must also be represented.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2012 :  08:07:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Ohh, why couldnt he have chosen a mainstream religion, like Oprahism or Voodoo?!"

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2012 :  16:50:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer



Dress up in full pirate regalia and insist that if they want it taught in schools then your religion of Pastafarianism must also be represented.


Absolutely.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2012 :  21:24:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What busts my chops is that Patty Kubetz, the woman who proposed bringing in Creationism in the guise of a "balance" to evolution, doesn't even have her kids in the district's schools. She's also the wife of one of the school board members. (What was his campaign slogan? "I'll tell you how to run your schools, but I'm not putting my kids in there"?) The Kubetz couple have no dog in this fight. Which I think makes the couple both sneaky hypocrites and (ahem) "outside agitators."

Anyway, as I now read the referred article, it looks like the Creationists lost this one, probably because of the good parents who spoke up against the idea. Well, that and this:
When this issue came to light, the Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation threatened legal action against the school district if it moved forward with the proposal, claiming it to be unconstitutional.

However the board president says that in no way influenced the board's decision.
Go Kiel High School!

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/02/2012 21:27:50
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2012 :  12:03:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

The creation/evolution debate has hit my area.

I have mixed feeling about it. On one hand I hate the fact that the creationists are getting airtime. On the other hand I think that if they keep getting smacked down publicly it might get something through their skulls.

What do you think?


You should have mixed feelings. The creationist are getting more airtime because they are smacking down the skullduggery passed off as science in our schools.

" If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species [/quote]


"Irreducible Complexity: The Challenge to the Darwinian Evolutionary Explanations of many Biochemical Structures

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/840
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2012 :  12:45:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

The creation/evolution debate has hit my area.

I have mixed feeling about it. On one hand I hate the fact that the creationists are getting airtime. On the other hand I think that if they keep getting smacked down publicly it might get something through their skulls.

What do you think?


You should have mixed feelings. The creationist are getting more airtime because they are smacking down the skullduggery passed off as science in our schools.

" If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species
Welcome to SFN, jamalrapper.

No, actually. Didn't you read the links? The Creos just got their asses handed to them by that school board. Along with a copy of the Constitution's Establishment Clause. Science wins again over attempts to impose private faith mythology in taxpayer-funded public schools.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/08/2012 16:49:28
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1882 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2012 :  13:14:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"We've been attacked. By the intelligent, educated segment of our culture." Pastor Ray Mummert

Originally posted by jamalrapper

[b] "Irreducible Complexity:
"Breathtaking inanity." Judge Jones.

Pretty effective smack down of non-science. Of course Behe is probably still selling books to the uninformed segment of our culture.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2012 :  15:34:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

The creation/evolution debate has hit my area.

I have mixed feeling about it. On one hand I hate the fact that the creationists are getting airtime. On the other hand I think that if they keep getting smacked down publicly it might get something through their skulls.

What do you think?


You should have mixed feelings. The creationist are getting more airtime because they are smacking down the skullduggery passed off as science in our schools.

" If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species


"Irreducible Complexity: The Challenge to the Darwinian Evolutionary Explanations of many Biochemical Structures

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/840


Interesting. The only problem is that the ID folks have yet to produce a single biological structure that can not be explained by biological evolution alone. By the way, all scientific theories must be falsifiable, which is what Darwin was pointing out. As it happens, falsifiability is lacking in ID. Just saying God did it can't be shown to be true or false. It therefor fails to meet one of the most fundamental criteria of science. To accept ID would mean that what science is would have to be redefined to accept pretty much any idea that anyone has about the diversity of life on this planet. If the idea has nothing that can falsify it, anything goes. ID for example.

The Flagellum Unspun

Kenneth Miller:
...The very existence of the Type III Secretory System shows that the bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex. It also demonstrates, more generally, that the claim of "irreducible complexity" is scientifically meaningless, constructed as it is upon the flimsiest of foundations – the assertion that because science has not yet found selectable functions for the components of a certain structure, it never will. In the final analysis, as the claims of intelligent design fall by the wayside, its advocates are left with a single, remaining tool with which to battle against the rising tide of scientific evidence. That tool may be effective in some circles, of course, but the scientific community will be quick to recognize it for what it really is – the classic argument from ignorance, dressed up in the shiny cloth of biochemistry and information theory...


Irreducible Complexity? The Bacterial Flagellum

On the eye:

Irreducible complexity cut down to size

On design and the designer:

Intelligent Designer Exposed: Who is the Designer?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2012 :  21:07:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure if this helps, but the minority leader in the Indiana Senate offered this amendment:

Senate minority leader Vi Simpson, D-Bloomington, offered an amendment to the bill before it left the Senate. The amendments requiring teachers to teach not just Christian creationism but theories from other religions "including but not limited to "Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Scientology."

-"Legislators weigh in on creation science bill", Lafayette Journal and Courier, 2/5/12

What, no Pastafarian creation theory?

“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.

-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2012 :  21:12:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by podcat

Not sure if this helps, but the minority leader in the Indiana Senate offered this amendment:

Senate minority leader Vi Simpson, D-Bloomington, offered an amendment to the bill before it left the Senate. The amendments requiring teachers to teach not just Christian creationism but theories from other religions "including but not limited to "Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Scientology."

-"Legislators weigh in on creation science bill", Lafayette Journal and Courier, 2/5/12

What, no Pastafarian creation theory?
Why, of course. The amendment is unlimited.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2012 :  21:41:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by podcat

Not sure if this helps, but the minority leader in the Indiana Senate offered this amendment:

Senate minority leader Vi Simpson, D-Bloomington, offered an amendment to the bill before it left the Senate. The amendments requiring teachers to teach not just Christian creationism but theories from other religions "including but not limited to "Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Scientology."

-"Legislators weigh in on creation science bill", Lafayette Journal and Courier, 2/5/12

What, no Pastafarian creation theory?
Smart move!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2012 :  14:23:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Richard Dawkins admits to intelligent design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrdQ8&feature=related

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2012 :  15:13:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

Richard Dawkins admits to intelligent design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrdQ8&feature=related

Nonsense. What Dawkins was saying, in this very edited clip of his interview with Ben Stein, (and when I say very edited, Dawkins was even lied to about the nature of the film) is that it's within the realm of speculation that the planet was seeded. He is talking about abiogenesis and not evolution or intelligent design. He was talking about panspermia. Stein kept pressing him on the beginning of life and Dawkins rightfully said we don't know yet. No where in there did he agree that anything about biological evolution requires a designer, nor did he say that panspermia was how life arose here.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2012 :  15:18:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil wrote

Kenneth Miller:
...The very existence of the Type III Secretory System shows that the bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex. It also demonstrates, more generally, that the claim of "irreducible complexity" is scientifically meaningless, constructed as it is upon the flimsiest of foundations – the assertion that because science has not yet found selectable functions for the components of a certain structure, it never will. In the final analysis, as the claims of intelligent design fall by the wayside, its advocates are left with a single, remaining tool with which to battle against the rising tide of scientific evidence. That tool may be effective in some circles, of course, but the scientific community will be quick to recognize it for what it really is – the classic argument from ignorance, dressed up in the shiny cloth of biochemistry and information theory...


Irreducible Complexity? The Bacterial Flagellum




Dr Behe quite easily dismisses both John McDonald and Kenneth Miller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RukdzIRqhE

http://www.discovery.org/a/3718

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