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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2012 : 05:19:37
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César Millán is a Mexican-American dog trainer who is famous as host of his Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan television show, hosted in the USA by Nat Geo Wild. The main theme of Millán's show is his knack at swiftly curing problem dogs of their behavioral problems.
César Millán.
Now, right up front: I like César. (By the way, on TV his name is pronounced "Caesar" -- like the Roman -- and "Milan" -- like the Italian city. The pronunciations in Mexican Spanish would be something like, "SAY-zar Mee-YAWN.") César Millán says he learned about dogs while growing up on his grandfather's Sinaloa farm, and I believe it. Both his excellent practice and his miserable theory confirm that.
Okay, I like César, and I think he's effective with dogs. But the expressed theories behind his training range from errant nonsense to total gobbledegook. In training dogs and especially in dealing with their fearful, neurotic, or aggressive behavior, I think that César is a self-tutored genius. He reads canine body language remarkably well and knows ways to get dogs to enjoy changing their behavior.
But what César tells the dog owners on his show sounds like the worst kind of New Age "healing" balderdash, as when he repeats his solemn admonition for dog owners to maintain a "calm-assertive energy," a phenomenon that is left without any coherent definition, though it may well have a meaning to Mr. Millán.
Other times, César emphasizes that owners should always be the "pack leader" with dogs. This is at a time when canine scientists like Ray Coppinger (he of the dog self-domestication theory) have been pointing out that pack behavior in dogs (as sharply distinguished from wolves) is a very weak instinct.
Within dog training, César is considered a "dominance trainer." In fact, César is far from alone among the non-scientific dog-training crowd, few of whom have a formal education in their field of work. Most trainers still stubbornly cling to "pack hierarchy" as though it were passed on from Above.
I may not go as far as to assert that César's methods are cruel, but stated nonsense is nonsense, and wrong is wrong.
I think it may be best to turn down the sound when watching The Dog Whisperer. Half of what César says is wrong and/or psychobabble. It's better to watch what César actually does. All his moves have grace and doggy genius in them. On the other hand, César's statements just confuse people.
César Millán really does have much to teach, but I don't think he consciously knows what it is.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/03/2012 06:29:32
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 08:01:18 [Permalink]
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Well Mooner, I am going to have to disagree with you that Ceasar might be peddling some woo. I do not see him as trying to get across that "calm assertive energy" is actually some sort of physical energy. It is merely an emotional state. As I am sure you know dogs are very good at reading people's emotions and they respond accordingly.
As far as the "pack leader" theory goes I think it is essential that your dog respect you as the leader. Ever have multiple dogs and watch how they maintain eye contact with you at all times? It is amazing, I can communicate wih my dogs and get them to obey using just slight changes in my eyes.
Phychology is a soft science but it can be very useful. I have learned a lot from Ceasar.
I can not ever recall him implying any kind of woo. He is just very good at explaining his ideas to laypeople. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 08:20:29 [Permalink]
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Oh, and as far as those that accuse him of being cruel to the dogs....what a bunch of whining ass pansies. Just because you must be dominant over your dogs does not make you cruel. Using your foot to tap the dog is not the same thing as kicking them.
What do these pussies want? Dogs to have equal rights or something? |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 08:30:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
What do these pussies want? Dogs to have equal rights or something?
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Ironically, I've never known a pussy who considered a dog his/her equal.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 13:29:12 [Permalink]
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| Zing! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 13:52:29 [Permalink]
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There are good reasons to question Cesar Millan's methods: Many veterinary behaviorists believe punishment-based techniques, like those seen on the show, could come back to bite dog owners. The National Geographic Channel even posts a warning on the screen during each episode: “Do not attempt these techniques yourself without consulting a professional.”
According to a paper in the May 2009 issue of the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research, attempts to assert dominance over a dog can increase a dog’s aggression. Researchers from the University of Bristol in the United Kingdom studied dogs in a shelter for six months, while also reanalyzing data from previous studies of feral dogs. Their findings support those of the Mech at the University of Minnesota: dogs don’t fight to get to the top of a “pack.” Rather, violence appears to be copycat behavior — something borne of nurture, not nature.
In another recent study, around 25 percent of owners using confrontational training techniques reported aggressive responses from their dogs. “The source of dog aggression has nothing to do with social hierarchy, but it does, in fact, have to do with fear,” says Meghan Herron, a veterinarian at The Ohio State University and lead author of the study published in the January 2009 issue of Applied Animal Behavior Science. “These dogs are acting aggressively as a response to fear.”
Dogs react physiologically to stress and fear in the same way people do, with hormones. Two 2008 studies out of Hungary and Japan showed, respectively, that concentrations of the stress hormone cortisol increased in dogs that were strictly disciplined and that levels were linked to elevation of aggressive behavior. What’s more, an Irish study found that physically or verbally reprimanding a dog with a history of biting people was one of the significant predictors of a subsequent bite. The results were published in April 2008 in Applied Animal Behavior Science. |
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 14:00:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Phychology is a soft science but it can be very useful. |
Not if it's baseless pop psychology.
| I have learned a lot from Ceasar. |
And you should face the possibility that you've been misinformed.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 14:23:14 [Permalink]
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| Oh, good! A hot discussion. I don't know of a case where skeptics, as such, have considered dog training. Though I am still of the opinion that Cesar's "theory" is a hodgepodge of traditional reward/punishment operant training, "pack leader" mentality and New Age-style babble, I also still assert that he generally gets good results. I'm open to evidence on all these points. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 14:41:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Well Mooner, I am going to have to disagree with you that Ceasar might be peddling some woo. I do not see him as trying to get across that "calm assertive energy" is actually some sort of physical energy. It is merely an emotional state. As I am sure you know dogs are very good at reading people's emotions and they respond accordingly.
. . .
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If one's theory uses such nonsense terms as "calm-assertive energy," then it is not scientific to the degree that the terms are not based upon reality. Sorry, I don't excuse metaphors in such a case as a theory about reality. To me, Cesar's whole training ball of wax, theory and practice, clearly reflects his own journey in life: First learning practical techniques on a Mexican farm, the picking up a mixed up theory by osmosis from his later California cultural environs.
I think Cesar has most of his practice right, but using the right words is vital to theory. "Energy," is measurable physical work, never anything else. To me, most of Cesar's theoretical comments -- and not just the "calm-assertive energy" thing -- sound like utter psychobabble mixed with outdated training theory, stuff that he's picked up in odd lots from his Hollywood clients and coworkers. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 14:43:37 [Permalink]
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| Yeah! |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 14:54:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Phychology is a soft science but it can be very useful. |
Not if it's baseless pop psychology.
| I have learned a lot from Ceasar. |
And you should face the possibility that you've been misinformed.
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It seems you might not be too familiar with Ceasars methods. He is not aggressive to the dogs unless it is absolutely necessary, even then he is aggressive without anger.
Actually H. Caesars methods go along quite well with the article you posted. His big thing is to remain calm and assertive. That seems to me to be an excellent example to set for the dog. His type of dominance training is never angry. Dominance does not necessarily have to equal aggressiveness. The best, most dominant people are the ones who are not loud about it. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 16:35:09 [Permalink]
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I really do agree with you, Ebone about how Cesar handles dogs effectively. My main gripe with the man is that his "theoretical" pronouncements do more to baffle dog owners than to help them.
As to the "cruelty" charges against Millan that some have made, I think they are overblown. The "kicking" is not an outright blow that would cause pain or injury; it's a semi-gentle distraction and correction to a dog that Cesar can see is beginning to consider a bad behavior. As you point out, Cesar doesn't get angry. Dogs can see this in him, and I think they appreciate and respect it. Dogs are tough and flexible. All but the worst neglect or abuse will generally be effective with them, "scientific" or not, so long as they realize they are not being bullied or neglected.
In an earlier post, you wrote, in part:Originally posted by Ebone4rock
. . . As I am sure you know dogs are very good at reading people's emotions and they respond accordingly.
As far as the "pack leader" theory goes I think it is essential that your dog respect you as the leader. Ever have multiple dogs and watch how they maintain eye contact with you at all times? It is amazing, I can communicate wih my dogs and get them to obey using just slight changes in my eyes.
. . . |
I disagree about the "pack" stuff, but I think what you observed you makes a good point that demonstrates the very human-tuned intelligence of dogs, a tuned intelligence that distinguishes them along with having very little pack hierarchy, from wolves. I think your dogs look at you so avidly because you provide food and fun activities, and because you are their friend, not because you fought your way to the head of the pack. It's their nature. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/03/2012 16:40:51 |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 18:50:24 [Permalink]
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My dog thinks he is a pussy...having been raised from a pure breed pup by two elder-sister, gnarly, mongrel, rescued, cats, who certainly use assertive and dominance tactics including kicking -with claws- to get his attention. I'm not sure random dogs thrown in a kennel or feral strays (dispersers by force?) are the opportunity to study normal behaviors. It would by like studying people in Auschwitz (yes I did just Godwin the thread) and determining general human behavior principals from that. In either case we may learn something about behavior in extreme conditions but not normal behavior. Also | around 25 percent of owners using confrontational training techniques reported |
sounds like a bad study...just saying. I have only seen a few episodes and I have never seen Milan use aggression. I think the terms derided are just human nature to try to use euphemism to describe complex things.
I still say god damn all the time, but I am not promoting religion when I do (though to be fair when I hear anyone else say it or invoke a god in any way, I always ask "which god?"). I also have talked (just yesterday) with my service staff about Christopher Hitchens advice to live "as if." when dealing with certain guests. The short story is that Hitchens suggests (with plenty of real life example) that sometimes we have to live "as if" there is a just and free society that will accept our right to our actions, even if we know there isn't yet.
I am trying to get rather new and inexperienced servers to be more positive and assertive about offering menu suggestions, specials, up selling. I said that acting "as if" the customers want to hear what the server has to say will give the server confidence and a certain "energy" in presenting the info to them. This will increase their success. It is not quite The Secret, but it is true of successful people - like golfers envisioning the ball on the green -that they often mentally act as if they have succeeded.
We can no more escape the metaphorical nature of language than we can escape the lowly origin of our species. That a popular TV show host uses popular metaphor to get a point across in sound bites should not come as a surprise, nor be seen as woo woo. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 19:48:03 [Permalink]
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Yeah, chefcrsh, your example of "energy" was a good use of metaphor. But a pep-talk with serving staff for marketing purposes is not the same thing as expounding a scientific theory of nutrition. The latter would involve, among other considerations, talking about real and measurable "energy": calories.
Millan's use of "energy" has more in common with marketing than with behavioral science, even though it's supposed to explain behavior. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/03/2012 19:48:43 |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 20:51:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
talking about real and measurable "energy": calories.
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Don't get me started!  |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 01:36:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chefcrsh
Originally posted by HalfMooner
talking about real and measurable "energy": calories.
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Don't get me started!
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Feel free. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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César Millán, the "Dog Whisperer"
