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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2012 : 04:59:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I really do agree with you, Ebone about how Cesar handles dogs effectively. My main gripe with the man is that his "theoretical" pronouncements do more to baffle dog owners than to help them. |
I believe you're over-reacting to his words, HalfMooner. Sure, he's using a language which reminds is of Woo at times, but that's not where he's coming from. I don't know what his level of education is, and I don't know the level of education of the people he's addressing, but to it looks to me like he is using a simple language not to convey a scientific theory but to make the dog owner understand the psychology behind the dog training he's teaching. He's addressing them, not you. If he met and talk to you personally, maybe he would explain it differently?
As to the "cruelty" charges against Millan that some have made, I think they are overblown. |
I've only seen a few episodes, but never anything in them that would suggest abuse.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 20:13:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I really do agree with you, Ebone about how Cesar handles dogs effectively. My main gripe with the man is that his "theoretical" pronouncements do more to baffle dog owners than to help them. |
I believe you're over-reacting to his words, HalfMooner. Sure, he's using a language which reminds is of Woo at times, but that's not where he's coming from. I don't know what his level of education is, and I don't know the level of education of the people he's addressing, but to it looks to me like he is using a simple language not to convey a scientific theory but to make the dog owner understand the psychology behind the dog training he's teaching. He's addressing them, not you. If he met and talk to you personally, maybe he would explain it differently?
. . . |
Am I "over-reacting to to his words"? I don't think so.
"Calm-assertive energy" is a phrase that is central to Cesar's non-theory of dog training. It it really is woo. Scientific-based trainers and animal behaviorists are capable of explaining their ideas clearly without nonsense or fuzzy phrases. I'm sure that, if Cesar understood what he is (correctly) doing in practice, he'd be capable of explaining clearly, also. "Calm-assertive energy" is a placeholder phrase, used essentially to make people feel Cesar intellectually understands his training techniques. It sounds scientific, like "quantum psychic energy," but is gobbledegook. I think that "Calm-assertive energy" is not a phrase that helps communication with laymen, but baffle-talk that deliberately short-circuits communication.
Since it's supposed to label or capsulize his theory, every word of it should actually make sense in the physical world. Dog trainers, even effective ones like Cesar, I assert, should not be exempt from skeptical critique.
Now, imagine that a set of parents has children with behavioral problems. (A fairly common situation, in the USA, the Philippines, and, I suppose, Sweden.) The parents call in a renowned child behavior expert. The expert tells the parents that they must establish themselves as heads of the family, by employing "calm-assertive energy." It turns out that the expert learned child behavior by growing up in an orphanage, has many former clients that swear by his results, has a TV show, and is widely considered the modern replacement for Dr. Benjamin Spock.
I submit: Might these parents, out of exceeding caution, be wise to instantly question the child behavior expert's credentials and training, and not to place their kids in this expert's dubious hands?
If so, isn't at least some portion of such cautious skepticism also proper when we entrust our canine best friends to experts?
Again, I repeat: I think Cesar gets good results. (Some nannies get fine results with problem kids, too, based entirely upon their practical knowledge.) If only Cesar could take the time to analyze his techniques, and develop a coherent theory from his experience! |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/04/2012 22:06:43 |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 08:04:14 [Permalink]
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Another dawg topic. Excellent.
There's a South Park parody of the dog whisperer where he successfully trains Cartman to behave well.
I have met fellow dog owners who are scarily clueless about dog behavior. Like I was in a lease-free area and a guy's big meaty dog stood defensively with its hair standing up and growling at me, and his owner told me, "oh, he's just playing." Clueless!
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 09:09:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMoonerAm I "over-reacting to to his words"? I don't think so.
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Maybe just reading too much into them.
Look, I want to help you through this, and normally I would go the long route. Beginning by ringing a bell whenever your food is delivered, only later to start ringing the bell when there is no food, just to fuck with you.
But I sense we don't have that kind of time, so I'm going to ask you, from now on when you hear Milan say Calm and Assertive Energy to say out loud "Calm and assertive mindset and posture." In a short while your brain will begin to interpret the former to mean the latter and you will be able to relax and enjoy the occasional time a dog bites someone on the show, or shits on the sofa... |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 19:37:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chefcrsh
Originally posted by HalfMoonerAm I "over-reacting to to his words"? I don't think so.
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Maybe just reading too much into them.
Look, I want to help you through this, and normally I would go the long route. Beginning by ringing a bell whenever your food is delivered, only later to start ringing the bell when there is no food, just to fuck with you.
. . . |
Nice try, but I'm already completely conditioned in that chaotic way.
. . .
But I sense we don't have that kind of time, so I'm going to ask you, from now on when you hear Milan say Calm and Assertive Energy to say out loud "Calm and assertive mindset and posture." In a short while your brain will begin to interpret the former to mean the latter and you will be able to relax and enjoy the occasional time a dog bites someone on the show, or shits on the sofa... |
Now, I think you put your finger on it! Why doesn't Cesar explain his theory that way? That's what he does, after all.
And why do so many of us give a dog trainer a pass on what would be considered blatant woo-speak if applied to human affairs?
Okay, here's another analogy. I have very little trouble with my back. (When I worked as a minicomputer technician for Pac Bell years ago, I was the only person in the crew who could lift some heavy items. I was just lucky that way, I suppose. Or maybe the other guys at work were fucking with me?) But now and then I did strain the muscles of my back.
With me at least, a back pain of that sort kind of fed upon itself. The pain caused tightness, and the tightness caused pain, in a sort of vicious cycle. I felt chiropractors were useless, and physicians were either useless or would prescribe drugs that would make driving to work (or working when I got there) impossible.
What I did instead was go to a shiatsu massage parlor, a place called Kabuki Hot Spring in San Francisco. There, I'd be given a long hot soak in a tub, then given a thorough acupressure massage. The masseuses and masseurs there were trained in Japan.
And I'd walk out of Kabuki Hot Spring each time without pain and feeling like a million dollars. They consistently broke my vicious cycle of back pain.
But the theory of shiatsu is total bullshit, based upon the same charts and points used in acupuncture. (The masseuses even used little theatrical tricks, such as each time they'd pull on one of my toes or fingers, they'd snap their own fingers to leave the impression that they'd popped my own finger/toe joints.)
The whole effect upon me may have been entirely placebo. I doubt it, though. Me, I just think the hot water and massage loosened my muscles and ended the vicious cycle that way. But however it worked, work it did, despite a theory behind it that I did not and do not comprehend, much less accept.
I wish shiatsu people would come up with a real theory that would make it less embarrassing for me to admit to skeptics that I have employed them for back-pain therapy. And I wish Cesar Millan would consider theory to be more important than he does, and throw out the gobbledegook he spouts.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 21:08:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
Another dawg topic. Excellent.
There's a South Park parody of the dog whisperer where he successfully trains Cartman to behave well.
I have met fellow dog owners who are scarily clueless about dog behavior. Like I was in a lease-free area and a guy's big meaty dog stood defensively with its hair standing up and growling at me, and his owner told me, "oh, he's just playing." Clueless!
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"Playing"! Har, har (shudder). "Let's let him play with your throat, shall we?" |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 22:10:23 [Permalink]
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| That was wonderful! Such dominance training couldn't happen to someone who needed it more than Cartman. And Cesar Millan seems to have been played by himself. Either that, or they got a perfect voice actor. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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msminnamouse
New Member
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2012 : 04:02:29 [Permalink]
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I thought that this was supposed to be a place for intelligent discussions but I guess I was wrong.
The authorities at the top of their fields in dog psychology and behavior, the ones backed by up to date and accurate behavioral science via education and research, not JUST hands on experience, have been warning people about Millan and his methods. Here's a whole conglomerate of real experts speaking out, who actually know what they're talking about. http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/
If you think that Millan is so great then you obviously just don't know better and you need to learn more about dogs. Try learning how to correctly interpret dog body language from a VALID source, then learn about Martin Seligman's Learned Helplessness experiment. Then watch the show on mute and concentrate on what the dogs are showing. I have NEVER seen a dog on his show that wasn't consistently throwing off constant stress and appeasement signals. What he calls "calm submissive" is nothing but the dog shut down in a state of learned helplessness. If you pin a dog to the floor for long enough or bully them long enough, the dog is going to learn that escape is futile and they give up and endure the abuse. JUST as Seligman's experiment evidences. Then you've got a dog that either remains in a forever state of learned helplessness or you've got a dog that's in a state of learned helplessness until they recover and unleash aggression that's worse than ever. Aggression begets aggression most of the time. Aggressive handling of animals is no exception.
Furthermore, Millan can't read dog body language himself (as you'd see if you became familiair with it and watched his show) AND he doesn't understand dominance. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201202/social-dominance-is-not-myth-wolves-dogs-and-other-animals
And dogs have the intelligence of a 2-3 year old child and none are going to mistake a human for an "alpha dog". He's not a pack leader. He's not a dog, therefor, he can't insert himself into a family and breeding unit that only includes dogs. And dogs being forced to live together by humans does not constitute a pack. Studies of feral dog populations also suggest that dogs do NOT form packs so his "pack mentality" is ignorant and BS.
Most of the dogs that he works with aren't even that aggressive. He has them riled up for the sake of his show so he can sweep in and act like a hero who can tame a dog that no one else can when the dogs aren't even that bad in the first place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9H3_gaQqZI
I really don't need to check back here for replies. I've armed you with the knowledge that you need, if you choose to accept it, then that's great. If you don't, then no amount of evidence is going to convince you.
And by the way, I'm a trainer and I work with rescue dogs with really severe behavioral issues. Never once did I have to dominate or manhandle a dog yet I'm successful and I don't get bitten like Millan frequently does.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2012 : 05:07:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by msminnamouse
1. I thought that this was supposed to be a place for intelligent discussions but I guess I was wrong.
The authorities at the top of their fields in dog psychology and behavior, the ones backed by up to date and accurate behavioral science via education and research, not JUST hands on experience, have been warning people about Millan and his methods. Here's a whole conglomerate of real experts speaking out, who actually know what they're talking about. http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/
2. If you think that Millan is so great then you obviously just don't know better and you need to learn more about dogs. Try learning how to correctly interpret dog body language from a VALID source, then learn about Martin Seligman's Learned Helplessness experiment. Then watch the show on mute and concentrate on what the dogs are showing. I have NEVER seen a dog on his show that wasn't consistently throwing off constant stress and appeasement signals. What he calls "calm submissive" is nothing but the dog shut down in a state of learned helplessness. If you pin a dog to the floor for long enough or bully them long enough, the dog is going to learn that escape is futile and they give up and endure the abuse. JUST as Seligman's experiment evidences. Then you've got a dog that either remains in a forever state of learned helplessness or you've got a dog that's in a state of learned helplessness until they recover and unleash aggression that's worse than ever. Aggression begets aggression most of the time. Aggressive handling of animals is no exception.
Furthermore, Millan can't read dog body language himself (as you'd see if you became familiair with it and watched his show) AND he doesn't understand dominance. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201202/social-dominance-is-not-myth-wolves-dogs-and-other-animals
And dogs have the intelligence of a 2-3 year old child and none are going to mistake a human for an "alpha dog". He's not a pack leader. He's not a dog, therefor, he can't insert himself into a family and breeding unit that only includes dogs. And dogs being forced to live together by humans does not constitute a pack. Studies of feral dog populations also suggest that dogs do NOT form packs so his "pack mentality" is ignorant and BS.
Most of the dogs that he works with aren't even that aggressive. He has them riled up for the sake of his show so he can sweep in and act like a hero who can tame a dog that no one else can when the dogs aren't even that bad in the first place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9H3_gaQqZI
3. I really don't need to check back here for replies. I've armed you with the knowledge that you need, if you choose to accept it, then that's great. If you don't, then no amount of evidence is going to convince you.
4. And by the way, I'm a trainer and I work with rescue dogs with really severe behavioral issues. Never once did I have to dominate or manhandle a dog yet I'm successful and I don't get bitten like Millan frequently does.
[Bolded numbers added above for reference from below]
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Welcome to SFN, msminnamouse!
1. An immediate and blanket condemnation of everyone in the forum? Nice way to win friends and influence people at first sight, msminnamouse. First, it seems you didn't read this thread at all thoroughly. This thread isn't a a fan club of, or a paean to Cesar Millan. It's a somewhat heated discussion with various very conflicting positions about his methods.
As far as I know, none of us here are animal behavior experts. We are unabashed laymen in this area. But some in the discussion have dogs, so are interested in the issues. In fact, I myself started the thread because I felt Millan was giving out bad teaching to dog owners. I feel he is too much in the outdated "pack discipline" school of dominance-based training, and that he also uses too many vague or meaningless terms, like "calm-assertive energy." Others begged to differ, while not outright inferring that I was too much of an idiot to take part in a discussion. Likewise, nobody else inferred that another, or everybody else in the discussion was too ignorant/stupid/dense to write about dogs.
2. I actually agree with much of your post. But please don't tar everyone here with the same brush. Read the thread, this time carefully! We have been quite divided on the issue of Millan. Your comments don't reflect that reality, as though you were not carefully reading the OP or the replies.
From the vehemence of your post, it seems to me you also assume that the casual discussion of Millan by laymen is somehow threatening to your beliefs about him. It shouldn't be. Treating everyone here from the get-go as as your adversaries is not a good way to evangelize your training philosophy, nor does it reflect observable reality.
3. Thank you for the links. I, for one, will read them. (Could you have possibly been a less bloody arrogant in the way you deigned to allow us access to that knowledge?) In some ways, I'm sorry you say you won't be back. In others, not so much. But if you change your mind and want to discuss these issues further (and civilly), I hope you'll be back. The input of a dog trainer would be welcome.
4. That's great! And getting a dog to trust and respect you is a lot more effective than domination, I fully agree. (And in dealing with humans, actually reading what they write, and treating them with due respect, also is effective. What's good for the canid is good for the hominid.) |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/17/2012 06:41:03 |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2012 : 09:38:51 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the info, msminnamouse, and what Mooner said.
I'm a dog owner. I used to be afraid of dogs but allayed my fears by learning about dog behavior from info in the early days of the Internet (before web pages existed). I still have my first dog, a malamute mix, that I rescued from a shelter. She was already house trained (mostly) but I ended up using a shock collar to get her attention when off leash. She's now listens to me (except when there are small critters to chase) and I haven't needed any refresher shocks in years. Woof.
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msminnamouse
New Member
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 01:05:12 [Permalink]
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I apologize about how what I wrote came off as sounding harsh but it really irks me because I'm not a layman in this field. I see first hand the damage that he, himself, does and also the damage that he does with his misbegotten advice. I see and treat the dogs who people used his methods on. The dogs become so fearful and so aggressive that they can't even handle them anymore and they're dropped off at shelters, given to rescues, handed out to anyone who will take them, abandoned at the sides of roads and even euthanized. The luckiest ones are the ones that are brought to real professionals and they have to basically over haul these dogs and teach them to trust again. I also see the dogs that people routinely use his methods on, the dogs that they keep. They're like robots because they're emotionally shut down. Just like an abuse victim. This is NOT what we should want for our dogs. I can always spot a dog who's been Cesar Millaned. They never make eye contact with their owners, they throw off frequent stress and appeasement signals, they look shut down and broken. They're afraid to even blink without getting permission because their owners have locked them into a ridiculous battle of superiority that the dog wants no part of. Here's a study showing how confrontational and punitive based methods, such as those used by Millan, increase or create aggression: http://companionanimalsolutions.com/blogs/confrontational-behavior-modification-techniques-and-the-risk-to-owners/
Shock collars are a worthless invention. They're nothing but a torture device. The dog misbehaves so you force them into compliance by punishing them with pain or even at the lowest settings, discomfort. If you can't train a dog without resorting to fear, pain, intimidation and force then you should leave the training up to someone who can do better. Shock collars are famous for malfunctioning and causing puncture wounds from the electrodes and burns from the shock. They're also famous for teaching or worsening aggression. The dog experiences pain or discomfort from the collar and associates it with what they see when it happens. So if you're on a walk and you shock your dog, your dog might associate the pain with a child walking by and will become child aggressive.
Not just that but punitive based training is worthless. Not only do studies show that dogs learn best from positive reinforcement and redirecting or ignoring (when suitable) unwanted behaviors, but when you do corrections, such as shocking a dog, you don't teach an alternate, acceptable behavior, you only suppress the current unwanted behavior. So your dog doesn't know how to appropriately deal with the situation so it often results in a brand new unwanted behavior.
You COULD get lucky with a shock collar every once in a while but it's cruel to shock a dog into compliance and the potential for harm far outweighs the benefit, especially when it's absolutely unnecessary to shock. You can always find a trainer who can train the desired behavior or cease the undesired behavior WITHOUT using shock.
There's also a study that says that dogs have more salt than we do so shock would be more painful to them than it would be to us, even though it DOES still hurt if you put a shock collar around a human neck and shock them. Even if you test a shock collar around your arm, it still hurts but necks are more sensitive than arms. There's also the fact that since the dogs are taken by surprise when they're shocked, this also increases the discomfort. I can't find the dogs containing more salt study but I can try to look for it some more if anyone requests it. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 02:26:45 [Permalink]
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Welcome back, msminnamouse! Thanks for taking the time to express your opinions and knowledge.
The salt content of dogs is probably irrelevant. Like people, their blood is conductive enough, and the collars are set to shock either species quite well enough.
I am of the opinion that shock collars should be used only in cases where the dog would otherwise be put down, not just to train hunting dogs, or (as with "invisible fences") to make it unnecessary to physically bar a dog from wandering. I haven't had such a dog yet, and I'm almost 67.
My biggest dog concern here in the Philippines is the presence of dogs-for-meat thieves. I lost my last Chihuahua dog to such people a few months ago here in Baguio. But that's thankfully not a major factor in the US. By the way, there are a lot of real dog lovers here, too. Unfortunately, "The Dog Whisperer" is also received here, and probably influences how even well-meaning and humane people treat their companion canines.
Dog submission is the main thing Cesar is after, as though he'd never had a canine friend. All of my dogs have been my pals. When they have had minor behavioral problems, bribes, stern talk, and exercise have always sufficed. They seem to mainly understand me, my tone if not all my words, and that works for me as well as a dog whining to come in from the rain works for them. But maybe I've led a charmed life in that regard.
Again, welcome back. Thanks for consideration in your tone. But don't feel shy about getting into a good argument. Just be prepared to supply evidence for your statements.
This is a skeptic's site, which means that most of us consider evidence-based scientific skepticism as a good model to try to use in many of our affairs. But there's no "official party line" among skeptics, especially in areas like companion animals. We here at SFN are probably as ignorant and opinionated as any other mixed group of people on this subject. Each of us will need to defend and/or modify our views individually, hopefully based on evidence.
Have at it! |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/20/2012 02:55:59 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 03/20/2012 : 08:46:15 [Permalink]
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Well Mooner the scientific concensus is getting stronger it seems!
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While it may be true that these techniques are damaging to a dogs mental health in some or many cases, your arguement is weaksauce.
My concern mouse is that your blanket statements are so full of vitrol and hated for Millan that you fail to accurately describe the issue, this type of thing will haunt you if you want to induce real change. You say that his techniques lead to abandonment and voilence issues yet you ignore the fact that many of them are violent and on the verge of abandonment before he gets involved. Also pretending like he hasnt made a real difference in many peoples lives and saved the lives of many dogs is laughable.
Also it should be noted that just because he isnt a "friend" to the dogs doesnt mean all of his clients become Cesar clones, most of them just learn that if they take their dogs for a damn walk, they wont need to do any of the other techniques.
The mentality in Mexico regarding dog ownership is different and his attitude and methods reflect that. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 08:52:18 [Permalink]
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| Just the other day, there was a program on Swedish television, where Swedish experts in the field of dogs and dog training hacked and slashed "a certain televised dog training program". I didn't have time to watch the program and as a pet-free home owner I didn't have any incentive to make the time. My neighbour have a very lively rottweiler, but we don't socialize. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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César Millán, the "Dog Whisperer"
