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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend
75 Posts |
 Posted - 02/09/2012 : 08:00:34
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Hello all,
Recently I've read some articles about one indian influential figure,Ramana Maharshi( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi ),he talked about "spiritual heart" on the right side.
Look what he said: "He placed his right hand on his right breast and continued, "Here lies the Heart, the dynamic, spiritual Heart. It is called Hridaya and is located on the right side of the chest and is clearly visible to the inner eye of an adept on the spiritual path.
Through meditation you can learn to find the Self in the cave of this Heart."
http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Sp/Ramana2c/Ramana2c.htm
What is this?Delusion?Enlightment?Any ideas?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2012 : 08:21:32 [Permalink]
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I'd call it somewhat enlightened and somewhat creative visualization.
He is talking about Chakra work and believed in it so strongly that he didn't do a lot of the basic charlatain things. He didn't charge for teachings. He didn't advertize. He didn't travel the world for publicity. He felt humility was the greatest trait to strive for.
The inner eye (aka the third eye Chakra) is a form of creative visualization.
He did not seek out converts but was willing to teach others if they were willing to learn.
Much like the writings of Miomoto Mushashi who put out the Book of the Five Rings where he gives rules that he lived by for others who were interested in following his example of an honorable life.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend
75 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2012 : 09:07:27 [Permalink]
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| What is creative visualization?Is it imagination?I also have no idea what is the "third eye" is |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2012 : 19:20:59 [Permalink]
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the third eye is centered between the two eyes.. the doorway to higher consciousness... spiritual awerness... Its very Hindu and such. Shiva is a third eye God. I had a third eye mystical experience in 1988. I was on my way to work driving with my friend down a bust two way street. storefronts on either side. A school also. It was rainin and you could not drive more than 25 or 30. kids were on the sidewalk in front of them parked cars.. I drove along and my friend screamed and before I knew it a kid came through my windshield. Of course I was completely devastated I was 20 years old. After the investigation and impoundment of my car I finally was able to go home.
When I was alone in my room I had a complete breakdown..crying crying crying..I lifted my head and scream' God please help me,,, help me... just then a small light appeared above my head white to be exact and I was paralyzed. It came down to my third eye and travelled throughout my whole body filling me with this intense warmth comfort. the feeling has never left.
In fact the whole experience changed my life I went to college and got my Bachelors in Sociology and On to Seminary where I met my husband. I could still see clear in my mind the whole experience. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2012 : 19:45:43 [Permalink]
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That's a terrible experience, Storm. It had to be hard. Thank you for sharing. I do think, given the difficulty of the circumstances and the tremendous emotional strain you were enduring, we must consider the possibility that your unusual experiences may have been the result of a psychotic break.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2012 : 19:49:30 [Permalink]
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2012 : 19:55:53 [Permalink]
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psychotic break? I ocannot say but it sure was mystical. And I can still feel that warmth today. Cenetred not in my third eye but in my chest. Hold on let me check to see what chakra is there. Not really a chakra person. Interesting those who use the third eye tend to have precognition, outer body, intuition.. All things I have experienced. Tonight I am going to concentrate on my third eye let us see what my dreams will hold. Mystical experience or the power of suggestion. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2012 : 20:24:15 [Permalink]
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| It is the heart chakra.. known fir self sacrifice unconditional love, etc, |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 06:56:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Alexander1304
What is creative visualization?Is it imagination?I also have no idea what is the "third eye" is
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Creative visualization is imagination where one closes ones eyes and tries to remember how something looks down to the finest details so that one actually forms a mental image. It is a concentration exercise.
The Third eye chakra is located between a person's eyes and just above the plane of their eyes. If you've seen the old Twilight Zones, there is one where a bus full of travelers have stopped in a small and isolated roadside cafe. Odd things happen. Lights switch on and off. Telephones start and stop working. Finally, the busload of travelers leaves. One of the travelers return where he reveals himself to be an alien who has three arms to the roadside cafe owner. Claiming that Earth is ripe for invasion by his species. The roadside cafe owner reveals himself to be an alien as well. He removes his kepi style cafe hat to reveal a third eye. Where that third eye shows in this episode is where the third eye is said to be.
As for Storm's relation of her personal experience........
Wow.
I'm sorry that you went through such a traumatic experience. It must have been horrible.
As for your claims regarding the third eye, do you have any empirical evidence for the claims you have made or are you just pulling it out of your ass again? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 07:33:12 [Permalink]
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Don't be rude Valiant  especially for someone who believes in ghosts and practices spells... and no I did not pull it out of my ass but my third eye. your right about empirical evidence I have none.. just my experience |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 09:42:37 [Permalink]
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Storm:
your right about empirical evidence I have none.. just my experience |
The gold standard for the New Age. The whole shebang is run on anecdotal evidence. When we tell them why homeopathic can only work as a placebo, and we have the evidence to support it, they just say, "well, it worked for me and my friends and science doesn't know everything." That isn't to say that stuff you describe, Storm doesn't happen. What it does say is that rather than really honestly consider what might be going on, your default is to reject more mundane explanations for what happend.
Part of the problem is that skeptics and believers really do have different frames of reference. Skeptics aren't perfect at talking with believers, often thinking that the validity of our logic is so apparent, that a person would have to be crazy to reject it. We see a lot of that here and really, anywhere that skeptics talk to believers. It's a cultural clash, even if it's true that we have the goods, which is what I believe, and for good reason. An attitude that can come off as sounding simply arrogant to someone who thinks differently. So with that in mind, I offer you this essay by Karla McLaren, published in Skeptical Inquirer. Whether you consider yourself a New Ager, or not, I think this essay might be of some value. Because most of the time, we are just talking past each other. I suggest that the skeptics here read it too.
Bridging the Chasm between Two Cultures
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:19:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Don't be rude Valiant especially for someone who believes in ghosts and practices spells... and no I did not pull it out of my ass but my third eye. your right about empirical evidence I have none.. just my experience
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As a practicing Wiccan for over two decades, I do believe in some metaphysical things.
I do not, however, present them as fact or not subject to scientific scrutiny. Your argumentation style has been to focus on a few items and then move on from the subjects that you are challenged on. It frustrates me when I see this kind of argumentation. I wonder if the person just didn't want to address the criticism, felt that the question was asked by one of the "unenlightened", or merely ignored because the person didn't want to deal with the admission that the statement was unsupported.
Likewise, in the Craft, I have seen people who were dedicated "on the astral" and believe that they were handed down great knowledge by the devine. These individuals, when pressed for their sources (and occassionally lineage by some of the subsects of Neopaganism which find it important) they demand that their views be held equal to others. I have seen a particular follower of Heathenism write a lengthy "class" on Wicca. They did not do the religion justice and also completely fabricated meanings and origins. Their bibliography consisted of Google searches and opinion. That also tweaks me.
It pisses me off. I find it to be intellectually dishonest. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 02/10/2012 12:21:21 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 14:48:20 [Permalink]
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| I do not jump from subject to subject. I truly want empitical evidence on the things I have experieced as well as other. Scientist skeptics still hold on to mumbo jumbo or fraud. You won;t find me in some haunted place screaming obsentities at so called spirits thats dishinest. You practice wicca what do you believe in Gods? Goddesses? Hectate? Freyja? Odin? Male diety female diety? I would love nothing more that to challenge.. well actually not challenge but find out why this phenomena happens and how. But I would need help from serious people. No frauds or true believers.. but the scientific community. You skeptics get one thought in your head, i.e. ghosts are fake because the body does not survive death.. but yet you do not think beyond that..that possibly there is truth to the phenomena..not souls of the dead...but imprints of the once living. I couldn't possibly have had a mystical experience because god does not exist or it was my "Psychotic break" instead of thinking that there is something more to the mind then we know. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 06:57:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
I do not jump from subject to subject. I truly want empitical evidence on the things I have experieced as well as other. Scientist skeptics still hold on to mumbo jumbo or fraud. |
No, they don't. They point out that there is no empirical evidence for the supposed phenomenon but there is ample evidence of past fraud. Of the two positions (spirit rapping exists or fraud) which has the most empirical evidence?
| You won;t find me in some haunted place screaming obsentities at so called spirits thats dishinest. |
Good. Zak Baggins is a damned fool and a coward. Note how he provokes and then throws his friend in the way.
You practice wicca what do you believe in Gods? Goddesses? Hectate? Freyja? Odin? Male diety female diety? |
Gods? Yes.
Goddesses? Yes.
A central creative force made up of force (the male) and form (the female). Incomplete without each other. My personal pantheon is Egyptian. (Ra, Isis, Anubis, Nut, Maat, etc)
| I would love nothing more that to challenge.. well actually not challenge but find out why this phenomena happens and how. |
What phenomenon? I do not claim to have empirical evidence of these dieties.
| But I would need help from serious people. No frauds or true believers.. but the scientific community. You skeptics get one thought in your head, i.e. ghosts are fake because the body does not survive death.. but yet you do not think beyond that..that possibly there is truth to the phenomena.. |
No, they don't. They take the default position of the extraordinary supposed phenomenon does not exist but if there is empirical evidence available, they are compelled through a strong, rational argument to change that view.
Insisting that they assume a premise not evidenced as a default is irrational.
not souls of the dead...but imprints of the once living. I couldn't possibly have had a mystical experience because god does not exist or it was my "Psychotic break" instead of thinking that there is something more to the mind then we know.
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You put out your personal story and described things that you alone experienced but no one else witnessed it. From your description of the event, it was a very traumatic event.
Given that several studies have been done and some of us have met people who were combat veterans of Vietnam who related their own experiences, we can determine that there are some times that post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) will cause very vivid halucinations right down to the sensory portions.
These combat veterans of Vietnam will dread Summer storms or helicopter flybys. The heat, dampness, and rustling of the trees will trigger vivid memories and a psychotic break occurs where they believe they have been transported back to Vietnam during the war. They feel the fear. They start scanning the trees for the enemy. They will look for booby traps.
It is not limited to Vietnam veterans. The same happens to returning Gulf War vets.
There is far more evidence of PTSD than your Chakric mystical experience. If you continue to have these unbidden Chakric mystical experiences, you may want to see a professional who specializes in PTSD. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 10:45:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Scientist skeptics still hold on to mumbo jumbo or fraud. |
Name one.| You skeptics get one thought in your head, i.e. ghosts are fake because the body does not survive death.. but yet you do not think beyond that..that possibly there is truth to the phenomena..not souls of the dead...but imprints of the once living. |
Without any sort of evidence that the once-living actually leave imprints, nor any sort of plausible mechanism through which they could leave imprints, entertaining the possibility is a waste of time and effort.| I couldn't possibly have had a mystical experience because god does not exist or it was my "Psychotic break" instead of thinking that there is something more to the mind then we know. |
No, we understand that people have mystical experiences, and we also understand that brains can play tricks on people, so having a mystical experience doesn't necessarily mean that anything mystical really exists. We can induce mystical experiences with drugs, oxygen starvation, magnetism, sensory deprivation (etc.), so the idea that these experiences reflect "something more" than brain chemistry gone awry isn't very compelling.
We need something more than "maybe there's something more" before we (most of us, anyway) can start taking it seriously. In the meantime, we have actual evidence that psychotic breaks and other mundane things can cause the sort of experience you've had, so the logical conclusion lies there (until new evidence is provided, of course). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 06:00:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
No, we understand that people have mystical experiences, and we also understand that brains can play tricks on people, so having a mystical experience doesn't necessarily mean that anything mystical really exists. We can induce mystical experiences with drugs, oxygen starvation, magnetism, sensory deprivation (etc.), so the idea that these experiences reflect "something more" than brain chemistry gone awry isn't very compelling.
We need something more than "maybe there's something more" before we (most of us, anyway) can start taking it seriously. In the meantime, we have actual evidence that psychotic breaks and other mundane things can cause the sort of experience you've had, so the logical conclusion lies there (until new evidence is provided, of course).
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This is some fine work Dave, keep it up. Might want to keep this on your clipboard for daily use. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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How reliable is the "mystical" experience?
