|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2012 : 03:08:40 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by jamalrapper
It might just turn out the extra pair of chromosomes Chipms 48pairs to humans 46 pair gives chimps the advantage in computer test scores. |
Speculation from your side, for which I can see no merit.
Here is another problem with Darwins evolution. Early primates were tree-dwellers.
|
What time-span are you referring to? You've been so off before, I don't believe you have a clue what you're talking about. You need to put some meat on those bones.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
 |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 03:15:51 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by jamalrapper
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The answer to the question why there are different chromosome numbers between humans and chimps (indeed, all great apes) lies in human chromosome #2. Even christian scientist Miller thinks it's irrefutable evidence of common descent.
|
Before you jump to the conclusion Chromosome 2 has been explained away. |
Where? How?
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 03:24:48 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by jamalrapper
Thanks Kil. Hit a road block with the first link. |
Yes, and you couldn't be bothered to continue reading? You've pulled a quote out of context and think this proved your point?
You wouldn't recognize science if it gave you a lapdance.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 05:39:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by jamalrapper
Thanks Kil. Hit a road block with the first link. |
Yes, and you couldn't be bothered to continue reading? You've pulled a quote out of context and think this proved your point?
You wouldn't recognize science if it gave you a lapdance.
|
 |
|
|
|
jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 06:10:26 [Permalink]
|
Going with your wiki link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_%28human%29
The following diseases are related to genes located in chromosome 2:
* 2p15-16.1 microdeletion syndrome
* Autism
* Alport syndrome
* Alström syndrome
* Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis
* Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, type 2
* Congenital hypothyroidism
* Dementia with Lewy bodies
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome, classical type
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome, vascular type
* Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva
* Harlequin type ichthyosis
* Hemochromatosis
* Hemochromatosis, type 4
* Hereditary nonpolyposis colorectal cancer
* Infantile-onset ascending hereditary spastic paralysis
* Juvenile primary lateral sclerosis
* Long-chain 3-hydroxyacyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase deficiency
* Maturity onset diabetes of the young type 6
* Mitochondrial trifunctional protein deficiency
* Nonsyndromic deafness
* Nonsyndromic deafness, autosomal recessive
* Primary hyperoxaluria
* Primary pulmonary hypertension
* Sitosterolemia (knockout of either ABCG5 or ABCG8)
* Sensenbrenner syndrome
* Synesthesia
* Waardenburg syndrome
So if these chromosomes are also found in chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans. Why is it the other apes do not suffer from the diseases related to genes located in Chromosome 2?
Only humans suffers from those diseases in the list.
It was easy to say they were just relics of 2 chromosomes 2a and 2b found in chimpanzees, before they knew what genetic material they carried.
But now that we know they contain genes for diseases that only afflict humans and not chimpanzees.....needs some serious explaining.
Surprising how skeptics go brain dead when facts don't go their way.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. 
|
| Edited by - jamalrapper on 02/25/2012 09:57:53 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 08:37:37 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by jamalrapper
Going with your wiki link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_%28human%29
The following diseases are related to genes located in chromosome 2:
* 2p15-16.1 microdeletion syndrome
* Autism
* Alport syndrome
* Alström syndrome
* Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis
* Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, type 2
* Congenital hypothyroidism
* Dementia with Lewy bodies
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome, classical type
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome, vascular type
* Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva
* Harlequin type ichthyosis
* Hemochromatosis
* Hemochromatosis, type 4
* Hereditary nonpolyposis colorectal cancer
* Infantile-onset ascending hereditary spastic paralysis
* Juvenile primary lateral sclerosis
* Long-chain 3-hydroxyacyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase deficiency
* Maturity onset diabetes of the young type 6
* Mitochondrial trifunctional protein deficiency
* Nonsyndromic deafness
* Nonsyndromic deafness, autosomal recessive
* Primary hyperoxaluria
* Primary pulmonary hypertension
* Sitosterolemia (knockout of either ABCG5 or ABCG8)
* Sensenbrenner syndrome
* Synesthesia
* Waardenburg syndrome
So if these chromosomes are also fund in chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans. Why is it the other apes do not suffer from the diseases related to genes located in Chromosome 2? |
You must think that human DNA never mutates. Hell, the first disease on that list was due to de novo mutations in every one of the six cases found. Here are the diseases known to be caused by mutations to Chromosome 2:* 2p15-16.1 microdeletion syndrome
* Alport syndrome
* Alström syndrome
* Congenital hypothyroidism
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome, classical type
* Ehlers–Danlos syndrome, vascular type
* Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva
* Harlequin type ichthyosis
* Hemochromatosis, type 4
* Hereditary nonpolyposis colorectal cancer
* Juvenile primary lateral sclerosis
* Maturity onset diabetes of the young type 6
* Mitochondrial trifunctional protein deficiency
* Primary hyperoxaluria
* Sitosterolemia (knockout of either ABCG5 or ABCG8)
* Sensenbrenner syndrome
* Waardenburg syndrome The other may be caused by mutations in chr 2, I can't tell from a quick perusal.| Only humans suffers from those diseases in the list. |
Prove it.It was easy to say they were just relics of 2 chromosomes 2a and 2b found in chimpanzees, before they knew what genetic material they carried.
But now that we know they contain genes for diseases that only afflict humans and not chimpanzees.....needs some serious explaining. |
It only needs explaining if you think that human DNA never mutates.| Surprising how skeptics go brain dead when facts don't go their way. |
And it's not at all surprising how you keep on making stuff up. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 09:35:57 [Permalink]
|
You do not understand the question again.
| Chromosome 2 arose out of the fusion of two ancestral ape chromosomes |
link was provide my head skeptic Kil. http://www.pnas.org/content/88/20/9051.full.pdf
| The data we present here demonstrate that a telomere-to-telomere fusion of ancestral chromosomes occurred, leaving a pathognomonic relic at band 2q13. This fusion accounts for the reduction of 24 pairs of chromosomes in the great apes (chimpanzee, orangutan, and gorilla) to 23 in modern human and must, therefore, have been a relatively recent event. |
So these relics are pathognomonic which means. A pathognomonic sign is a particular sign whose presence means that a particular disease is present beyond any doubt.
We know what these diseases are and have a list of them.
Why do chimpanzees not suffer from the same diseases. If it is the mutation of these genes that causes the diseases. Does it mean it only mutates in humans and not chimpanzees. We know chimpanzees and apes have the same chromosomes identified as 2a and 2b.
We know most mutations are bad and even here they are disease causing genes. So why was the mutation that caused the fusion of Chromosome good to begin with. They should have been rejected by Natural selection and never passed on to the next generation of humans. So humans would have the normal 48 pairs of good healthy chromosomes.
Do you know if chimpanzees suffer from the same diseases that humans suffer related to their similar chromosomes. Evolutionist are quick to point to similarities as proof, Chromosome 2 arose out of the fusion of two ancestral ape chromosomes. But slow in dealing with the contradictions. |
| Edited by - jamalrapper on 02/25/2012 09:38:00 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 10:38:30 [Permalink]
|
You are misreading the use of the word, "pathognomonic," jamalrapper. In this use, it simply is used to indicate that the presence of the relics of telemeres "at band 2q13" well inside Chromosome 2 is "pathognomonic" (or "firm diagnostic evidence") that the two earlier chromosomes have fused at that point. Telemeres are normally located at the ends of chromosomes. That identifiable parts of telemeres are found inside a chromosome indicates fusion of two chromosomes. Their relatively recognizable and little-mutated state means this was a recent event in evolutionary time.
You are chasing your own tail again. "Disease" is not what they're writing about. They mean "proof." |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/25/2012 10:57:20 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 11:51:20 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by jamalrapper
You do not understand the question again. |
No, you don't understand why your question betrays a pathetic misunderstanding of both the fusion evidence and evolution in general.So these relics are pathognomonic which means. A pathognomonic sign is a particular sign whose presence means that a particular disease is present beyond any doubt.
We know what these diseases are and have a list of them. |
If that were true, then all humans would have all those diseases all the time. HalfMooner has provided the proper use of the term in this context.| Why do chimpanzees not suffer from the same diseases. |
You are the only person claiming that they don't get the same diseases. Where is your evidence?| If it is the mutation of these genes that causes the diseases. |
No, it is not the mutation of the fusion relic that causes any of those diseases. Those diseases are caused by mutations to other sections of chromosome 2.| Does it mean it only mutates in humans and not chimpanzees. We know chimpanzees and apes have the same chromosomes identified as 2a and 2b. |
You have provided no evidence at all that other apes cannot get those same diseases. Until you do, then your question is meaningless.| We know most mutations are bad and even here they are disease causing genes. |
No, the fusion did not cause any of those diseases.| So why was the mutation that caused the fusion of Chromosome good to begin with. |
Who says it was good?| They should have been rejected by Natural selection and never passed on to the next generation of humans. So humans would have the normal 48 pairs of good healthy chromosomes. |
Apparently, the fusion of the chromosome did not cause such a large selective disadvantage.| Do you know if chimpanzees suffer from the same diseases that humans suffer related to their similar chromosomes. |
You claim to know that they do not. Where is your evidence?| Evolutionist are quick to point to similarities as proof, Chromosome 2 arose out of the fusion of two ancestral ape chromosomes. But slow in dealing with the contradictions. |
There's no contradiction here, because the fusion did not cause any of those diseases. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 12:14:42 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
You are misreading the use of the word, "pathognomonic," jamalrapper. In this use, it simply is used to indicate that the presence of the relics of telemeres "at band 2q13" well inside Chromosome 2 is "pathognomonic" (or "firm diagnostic evidence") that the two earlier chromosomes have fused at that point. Telemeres are normally located at the ends of chromosomes. That identifiable parts of telemeres are found inside a chromosome indicates fusion of two chromosomes. Their relatively recognizable and little-mutated state means this was a recent event in evolutionary time.
You are chasing your own tail again. "Disease" is not what they're writing about. They mean "proof."
|
I hope you are right because it also says in the link.
Comparative cytogenetic studies in mammalian species indicate that Robertsonian changes have played a major role in karyotype evolution (23, 24). This study demonstrates that telomere-telomere fusion, rather than translocation after chromosome breakage, is responsible for the evolution of human chromosome 2 from ancestral ape chromosomes.
Fusion of telomeres is a rare occurrence in normal lymphoblasts
and fibroblasts, although it has been observed in 20-30% of the cells of certain tumors |
What they appear to be saying is Robertsonian translocation is what they know about and is generally non beneficial. Down's syndrome, trisomy comes to mind.
Telomere fusion is rare and causes tumors in 20-30% of cells.
We know Chromosome 2 is made up of genetic material that is the cause of all those diseases listed earlier. So what part is not pathogenic.
Read Definition of pathognomonic.
| Pathognomonic: A sign or symptom that is so characteristic of a disease that it makes the diagnosis. For example, Koplik's spots (on the buccal mucosa opposite the lst and 2nd upper molars) are pathognomonic of measles. The word "pathognomonic" (pronounced patho-no-monic) comes from the Greek "pathognomonikos' meaning "skilled in judging diseases." |
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 12:57:01 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by jamalrapper
Originally posted by HalfMooner
You are misreading the use of the word, "pathognomonic," jamalrapper. In this use, it simply is used to indicate that the presence of the relics of telemeres "at band 2q13" well inside Chromosome 2 is "pathognomonic" (or "firm diagnostic evidence") that the two earlier chromosomes have fused at that point. Telemeres are normally located at the ends of chromosomes. That identifiable parts of telemeres are found inside a chromosome indicates fusion of two chromosomes. Their relatively recognizable and little-mutated state means this was a recent event in evolutionary time.
You are chasing your own tail again. "Disease" is not what they're writing about. They mean "proof."
|
I hope you are right because it also says in the link.
Comparative cytogenetic studies in mammalian species indicate that Robertsonian changes have played a major role in karyotype evolution (23, 24). This study demonstrates that telomere-telomere fusion, rather than translocation after chromosome breakage, is responsible for the evolution of human chromosome 2 from ancestral ape chromosomes.
Fusion of telomeres is a rare occurrence in normal lymphoblasts
and fibroblasts, although it has been observed in 20-30% of the cells of certain tumors |
What they appear to be saying is Robertsonian translocation is what they know about and is generally non beneficial. Down's syndrome, trisomy comes to mind.
Telomere fusion is rare and causes tumors in 20-30% of cells.
We know Chromosome 2 is made up of genetic material that is the cause of all those diseases listed earlier. So what part is not pathogenic.
Read Definition of pathognomonic.
| Pathognomonic: A sign or symptom that is so characteristic of a disease that it makes the diagnosis. For example, Koplik's spots (on the buccal mucosa opposite the lst and 2nd upper molars) are pathognomonic of measles. The word "pathognomonic" (pronounced patho-no-monic) comes from the Greek "pathognomonikos' meaning "skilled in judging diseases." |
|
Whether tumor cells often have chromosome fusion or not is a side issue. Tumorous cells often have scrambled genetics. But these cells hardly ever produce offspring.
We're talking here about the germ cell line going back to the divergence between human ancestors and their ape-like cousins. Most random fusions of chromosomes in germ cells are probably fatal and do not produce viable offspring. A smaller number of them are probably neutral or only slightly disadvantageous in terms of adaptation. And a very few may somehow be advantageous.
Given that only humans and no apes now have this particular fusion, this is suggestive to me of the possibility that this mutation somehow was crucial in creating conditions that later allowed humans to evolve as they did. It may have made a small population of our line of descent unable to interbreed with a larger ape-like line, thus accelerating our divergence. But that's mere speculation on my part. The fusion might just as easily been completely neutral, or slightly harmful. But I bet we'll have a better idea one of these years.
I'd read the definition of pathognomonic before writing my previous post. But by the word's context in the cited paper, I still think it was used merely to mean that the telemere relics are clear evidence of chromosome fusion.
The authors may have used "pathognomonic" somewhat unconventionally, but I think I understand what they meant. They did not say "pathognomonic of [so-and-so disease(s)]," they just said "pathognomonic relic at band 2q13," and then mentioned nothing about any disease. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 16:39:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by jamalrapper
So if these chromosomes are also found in chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans. Why is it the other apes do not suffer from the diseases related to genes located in Chromosome 2?
Only humans suffers from those diseases in the list. |
Your argument is as stupid as saying BSE (Mad Cow disease) and Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease is totally unrelated because they have different names.
Cherry-picking Wikipedia like you just did is also dishonest since you are misrepresenting the content of that page as supporting not-common-ancestor when in fact that is a central point in the article. The Wikipedia-link you provided also says: "The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[5][6]"
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/25/2012 16:46:34 |
|
|
|
jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 18:36:50 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by jamalrapper
So if these chromosomes are also found in chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans. Why is it the other apes do not suffer from the diseases related to genes located in Chromosome 2?
Only humans suffers from those diseases in the list. |
Your argument is as stupid as saying BSE (Mad Cow disease) and Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease is totally unrelated because they have different names.
Cherry-picking Wikipedia like you just did is also dishonest since you are misrepresenting the content of that page as supporting not-common-ancestor when in fact that is a central point in the article. The Wikipedia-link you provided also says: "The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[5][6]"
|
There is an ongoing discussion with Halfmooner where I have quoted from the very link head skeptic Kil provided.http://www.pnas.org/content/88/20/9051.full.pdf
| We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomeretelomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2. |
I also put in quote.
| jamalrapper wrote: Chromosome 2 arose out of the fusion of two ancestral ape chromosomes |
I have also mentioned chromosome 2 are found in the chimpanzee as chromosome 2a and 2b. That is found in most of the material presented.
What is not well explained is why chromosome 2 in humans carry genetic material for diseases that are not found in chimpanzees even though we have the same two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.
Try answering that question. Not BSE which afflicts cows. We are talking about humans and apes.
|
|
|
|
jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 19:32:19 [Permalink]
|
| Halfmooner wrote: Given that only humans and no apes now have this particular fusion, this is suggestive to me of the possibility that this mutation somehow was crucial in creating conditions that later allowed humans to evolve as they did. It may have made a small population of our line of descent unable to interbreed with a larger ape-like line, thus accelerating our divergence. But that's mere speculation on my part. The fusion might just as easily been completely neutral, or slightly harmful. But I bet we'll have a better idea one of these years. |
This was a major part of the Douglas Axes position on "The limits of complex adaptation."
Lynch and Abegg describe an advantage of very small populations being that maladaptive alleles can become fixed by genetic drift [6]. But the ease of fixation is one thing, and the consequence is another. In view of the fact that maladaptive
mutations are much more common than adaptive ones [9, 10], populations that are too small for purifying selection to work
will inevitably undergo genetic degradation, which makes extinction the most likely outcome. |
| In the first place, since our primary interest is to place reliable limits on what is evolutionarily feasible, we will focus on the kinds of populations that are most apt to produce complex adaptations, by which we mean those providing the most opportunities for chance events to accomplish something of significance. In this regard, bigger populations are definitely better. |
| Because gene expression carries a metabolic cost, we expect duplicate genes to be maladaptive [15-18] unless their expression is substantially curtailed. Consistent with this, a recent study has found that a wide variety of mutations that reduce expression of a non-functional gene are rapidly fixed during extended serial culture [19]. Accordingly, in the present case we assume (A3 above) that all genetic intermediates en route to the complex adaptation are sufficiently maladaptive that natural selection prevents their accumulation. In the next section we consider the alternative case of selectively neutral intermediates. |
In short what Axe is saying is there are limits to complex adaptation because the stages required for both maladaptive intermediates and neutral intermediate wait times exceed the time space available to complete fixation of these adaptions.
Link to Axe's papers.
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.4 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 19:40:26 [Permalink]
|
Human diseases, including those of genetic origin, have been studied since earliest antiquity. By comparison, apes are newcomers to scientific or medical study. Western science hadn't even discovered the lowland gorilla until 1847, or the mountain gorilla until 1901. The chimpanzee was probably discovered by science in 1776, and the bonobo not until 1928.
Millions of physicians have been studying human disease for millennia. By comparison, apes have a very small and underfunded medical establishment at their service, and even that available only for the posh captive apes. Under these circumstances, I would be shocked if anywhere near as many ape genetic diseases had been identified as have human genetic diseases. Lack of known diseases is not lack of actual diseases. The disparity is a matter of classic, unintended sampling bias.
My guess is that we do share most genetic disease with the apes. We already know we share very many of these with our far more distant cousins, dogs . . .| "Dogs suffer from more than 350 genetic disorders, many of which resemble human conditions," said Ewen Kirkness, a molecular biologist at the Institute for Genomic Research in Rockville, Maryland, who led the research. "The genes responsible for these are probably constant to humans and dogs." |
. . . so our closer relatives are almost certainly even closer to us in terms of inherited diseases. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/25/2012 19:53:51 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
The Missing Universe Museum
