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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2012 : 02:24:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
Try answering that question. Not BSE which afflicts cows. We are talking about humans and apes.
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I clearly marked BSE as a comparison. If you can't recognzie an analogy when I hit you over the head with it, then there really isn't any hope for you.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 04:59:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
| Halfmooner wrote: Given that only humans and no apes now have this particular fusion, this is suggestive to me of the possibility that this mutation somehow was crucial in creating conditions that later allowed humans to evolve as they did. It may have made a small population of our line of descent unable to interbreed with a larger ape-like line, thus accelerating our divergence. But that's mere speculation on my part. The fusion might just as easily been completely neutral, or slightly harmful. But I bet we'll have a better idea one of these years. |
This was a major part of the Douglas Axes position on "The limits of complex adaptation."
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Modern evolutionary scientists know that small populations that become genetically isolated from the larger existing populations have the fastest speciation and adaptive evolutionary change. A new river, a rising mountain range, a sinking land-bridge -- or a mutation such as chromosomal fusion -- may cause the isolation, but the result is that the isolated population will be freer than before to adapt quickly to its environment. It can go into evolutionary overdrive without its genes mixing back into a much larger pool.
When the chimp ancestors and the human ancestors diverged, it seems very likely their parting was caused by the chromosomal fusion causing an inability to interbreed and have viable offspring. And that one event may be explanation to the beginning of the path that brought us here to do science, and left the chimps there in their trees. (Could be they are happier, though.)
Axe has got a strange name for his paper. If there are limits to adaptation, they are very few in number. Just. Look. Around.
Axe has a very large, dull axe to grind, it seems to me. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 08:10:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
What is not well explained is why chromosome 2 in humans carry genetic material for diseases that are not found in chimpanzees even though we have the same two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2. |
You are the only person claiming that none of the genetic diseases of humans associated with chromosome 2 are found in chimps. Where is your evidence that that is true?| Try answering that question. |
If the premise of the question is false, then there's no reason to answer it. Have you stopped beating your wife? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 09:01:52 [Permalink]
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| Halfmooner wrote:When the chimp ancestors and the human ancestors diverged, it seems very likely their parting was caused by the chromosomal fusion causing an inability to interbreed and have viable offspring. And that one event may be explanation to the beginning of the path that brought us here to do science, and left the chimps there in their trees. (Could be they are happier, though). |
| Halfmooner wrote:It may have made a small population of our line of descent unable to interbreed with a larger ape-like line, thus accelerating our divergence. |
Genetic evidencehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee
Shocking evidence which puts Chimpanzee and human divergence to only about 1.2 million years. How does that explain our understanding of mutations and the fused Chromosome 2 which is only found in humans. Yet there is genetic evidence proving iinterspecies mating between "proto-human" and "proto-chimps". Chimpanzees would have inherited the fused Chromosome 2 from the interbreeding interspecies proto-human" and "proto-chimps.
Looking back millions of years into early human history, current research into human evolution tends to confirm that in some cases, interspecies sexual activity may have been a key part of human evolution. Analysis of the species' genes in 2006 provides evidence that after humans had started to diverge from chimps, interspecies mating between "proto-human" and "proto-chimps" nonetheless occurred regularly enough to change certain genes in the new gene pool:
A new comparison of the human and chimp genomes suggests that after the two lineages separated, they may have begun interbreeding... A principal finding is that the X chromosomes of humans and chimps appear to have diverged about 1.2 million years more recently than the other chromosomes.
The research suggests that
There were in fact two splits between the human and chimp lineages, with the first being followed by interbreeding between the two populations and then a second split. The suggestion of a hybridization has startled paleoanthropologists, who nonetheless are 'treating the new genetic data seriously'.[13] |
We also have to revisit the phylogeny ancestral primate chart which shows human and chimpanzee divergence around 7 million years. But it is now understood proto-human and proto-chimp actually got back together and started interspecies breeding. So the real divergence between chimpanzees and humans happened much later than what evolutionist believed. What have these evolutionist got right.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 10:50:56 [Permalink]
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justintime:
Shocking evidence which puts Chimpanzee and human divergence to only about 1.2 million years. |
Firstly, this is very nearly cryptozoology. It's speculation. Also, if chimp human divergence happened between 5 and 7 million years, which is what is commonly believed, even in this highly speculative thesis, it hardly puts puts divergence at 1.2 million years ago. Learn to read. Oh wait. You are just trolling so you do this kind of shit on purpose. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 12:30:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
justintime:
Shocking evidence which puts Chimpanzee and human divergence to only about 1.2 million years. |
Firstly, this is very nearly cryptozoology. It's speculation. Also, if chimp human divergence happened between 5 and 7 million years, which is what is commonly believed, even in this highly speculative thesis, it hardly puts puts divergence at 1.2 million years ago. Learn to read. Oh wait. You are just trolling so you do this kind of shit on purpose.
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Can you explain proto-human and proto-chimpanzees interbreeding after the divergence from the hominini group.
Homo (humans) Pan (Chimpanzees) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 12:47:30 [Permalink]
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justintime:
Can you explain proto-human and proto-chimpanzees interbreeding after the divergence from the hominini group. |
You ask that as if it's an established fact. It isn't. But if it happened, the short answer would be that there wasn't much physical difference between the two lines, close to the split. We also carry genes that were given to us by interbreeding with Neanderthals. That actually gave us a genetic diversity advantage. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 19:11:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
justintime:
Can you explain proto-human and proto-chimpanzees interbreeding after the divergence from the hominini group. |
You ask that as if it's an established fact. It isn't. But if it happened, the short answer would be that there wasn't much physical difference between the two lines, close to the split. We also carry genes that were given to us by interbreeding with Neanderthals. That actually gave us a genetic diversity advantage.
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No such luck. Neanderthal genetic influence was very small.
http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/dna.html
| If Neandertals made a significant genetic contribution to modern humans, similarities should exist between DNA of Neandertals and that of people from Europe, where the Neandertals persisted the longest. Pääbo and his colleagues compared the Neandertal DNA to that from five modern populations, but it proved no closer to DNA from modern Europeans than to that from four other groups. While this does not rule out the possibility of Neandertal and modern human mixing, it suggests that the Neandertal genetic contribution to modern gene pools, if any, was small. |
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 19:50:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
jamalrapper:
Surprisingly there are a few evolutionists who believe chimpanzees and apes evolved from humans and not the other way around. |
Oh here we go again. The answer to that is no they don't. This comes from a misinterpretation of what we have learned looking at Ardipithecus ramidus, the earliest known hominid, at 4.5 million years ago, leading to humans. What it suggests is that modern apes evolved at least as much, if not more than we did from our common ancestors. In other words, we can't look at a chimp and surmise what our ape like ancestors looked like, because they didn’t look like chimps. Ardi had features that are found in humans but not in modern apes. (That is not to say that she didn't have features we would expect to find in an ape like creature.)
Ardi lived more recently than the most recent common ancestor of chimps and humans, but still provides some evidence for what that ancestor was like. Specifically, the skeleton suggests the common ancestor was not as chimp-like as some had supposed,[2] but rather was "probably a plantigrade quadrupedal arboreal climber/clamberer that lacked specializations for suspension, vertical climbing, or knuckle-walking"[13] (i.e. the common ancestor lacked certain important specializations of chimps).
The canine teeth of A. ramidus are smaller, and equal in size between males and females. This suggests reduced male-to-male conflict, pair-bonding, and increased parental investment.[4]
Researchers infer from the form of Ardi's pelvis and limbs and the presence of her opposable big toe that she was a facultative biped: bipedal when moving on the ground, but quadrupedal when moving about in tree branches.[6][13][14] Ardi had a more primitive walking ability than later hominids, and could not walk or run for long distances.[11] The teeth suggest omnivory, and are more generalized than those of modern apes.[13] |
In other words, our common ancestors, like us, had more generalized features than several of the great apes more specialized features. This in no way infers that Ardi was human or that Ardi or the ancestors to apes were human. Only that our common ancestors had human like features that are not found in the apes living today.
jamalrapper:
Humans are actually better at climbing trees which puts them closer to the monkeys than chimpanzees. |
No it doesn't. That was a joke, right? Let's see a human live like a monkey.
And given that chimps do most of their eating and sleeping in trees, your videos still mean nothing. A race to the top of the tree has nothing to do with suitability to a forest habitat. Chimps also spend about half their time on the ground.
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I noticed you mentioned Ardipithecus. They placed Ardi about 4 million years ago. Old theoriues placed chimpanzee and human splitting 5-7 million years ago. This provided a gap that was waiting to be filled by some other common ancestor besides Ardi.
New DNA points to a more recent split between chimpanzees and humans around 4 million years. That does make thing awkward for old arguments.
Check link:
Chimps and humans split 4 million years ago
http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0223-chimps.html
| New research using DNA analysis suggests that chimpanzees and humans split from a common ancestor just 4 million years ago -- much earlier than the 5-7 million years currently accepted by biologists. The study is published in Public Library of Science journal PLoS Genetics. |
You guys don't have enough interested members or qualified moderators in many of the science subjects especially evolution. The last big debate was pink flamingos.
Get some qualified guys on the team. Apply for a H-1B visa. Just saying....... |
| Edited by - jamalrapper on 02/26/2012 19:51:54 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 20:23:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
Originally posted by Kil
justintime:
Can you explain proto-human and proto-chimpanzees interbreeding after the divergence from the hominini group. |
You ask that as if it's an established fact. It isn't. But if it happened, the short answer would be that there wasn't much physical difference between the two lines, close to the split. We also carry genes that were given to us by interbreeding with Neanderthals. That actually gave us a genetic diversity advantage.
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No such luck. Neanderthal genetic influence was very small.
http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/dna.html
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How did you manage to find an article dating back to 1997 when all off the current stuff says that we carry 1 to 4% Neanderthal DNA?
That is, unless you are from Africa.
What the hell were your search terms?
Try "Neanderthal Human interbreeding." Your article doesn't even come up. But lots do on the more recent findings.
Close Encounters of the Prehistoric Kind
http://news.discovery.com/human/neanderthal-human-interbreed-dna.html
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 20:33:02 [Permalink]
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justintime:
Chimps and humans split 4 million years ago. |
If that were true than Ardi could possibly be a common ancestor. But it's only one study. If true, it will be interesting to see where they put Ardi and A afarensis.
This is probably the first interesting bit of news you have brought to this forum. At least to me, anyhow. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 20:37:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by jamalrapper
Get some qualified guys on the team. |
Well, you certainly aren't helping.
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No shit. This from a guy who argued that chimps evolved from humans.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 21:28:00 [Permalink]
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Hey Kil, I am a contributor to your site not a consumer. When you see stuff like chimpanzees beating bright university students in computer cognitive test. Chimpanzees having 48pairs of normal chromosomes unlike humans 46 with 2 fused. The 2 fused chromosomes in humans carrying genetic material for a host of diseases. Even a skeptic has to pause for thought and ask. Did our evolutionist get it right?
They just can't follow or blame Darwin for everything. Darwin wrote his stuff like 200 years ago, did not have the benefit of modern science, genetics or all the fossils discovered in recent times.
Add to that chimpanzees inter-species breeding with humans over 1.2 million years after divergence(Only DNA could prove that). They avoided those defective chromosomes and kept those smart genes to themselves.
You noticed Chromosome 2 is also suspected of carrying genetic material for intelligence. Humans got stuck with junk that causes Down's syndrome, autism, trisomy etc.etc..
DaveW is still stuck with singlecell, multicell 101's. and here I am being generous with my time. Keep well my friend. |
| Edited by - jamalrapper on 02/26/2012 21:30:30 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 21:30:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
justintime:
Chimps and humans split 4 million years ago. |
If that were true than Ardi could possibly be a common ancestor. But it's only one study. If true, it will be interesting to see where they put Ardi and A afarensis.
This is probably the first interesting bit of news you have brought to this forum. At least to me, anyhow.
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Thing about that study is it's from 2007. And not a peep since then. It was controversial when it came out. I'm interested because it changes a few things, and our early history is like a mystery story. Anyhow, it's not very promising that nothing more has been said about it in 5 years. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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The Missing Universe Museum
