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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2012 : 20:15:06
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What does that really mean? you are free to think what you want or freee to think only if its what others think or reason.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 20:58:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
What does that really mean? you are free to think what you want or freee to think only if its what others think or reason.
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Neither. Not if you mean by the first option, just thinking whatever comes to mind, and continuing in that manner. And it's the near opposite of your second option, simply following the thoughts of others uncritically.
Wiki has a good, brief definition of Freethought::| Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or other dogmas. |
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 21:02:52 [Permalink]
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| but how is that free. What you replaced with dogma and authority is science, logic reason. The dogmas of todays society. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 22:02:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
but how is that free. What you replaced with dogma and authority is science, logic reason. The dogmas of todays society.
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Freethinkers seek to free themselves of dogma and blind tradition.
Just as atheism is not a religion any more than running is a way of sitting, science, freethought and reason are the opposites of dogma, actively working against it.
Science is not a dogmatic system, as it has no "final truths," and is always seeking to overthrow incomplete and faulty theories. And reason is the basis of any productive use of our brains. Without reason, there's no purpose to this discussion.
Science and reason are methods, not dogma. The very antitheses of dogma. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/21/2012 22:08:42 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 22:05:51 [Permalink]
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If science, logic and reason are dogmas, then black is white, love is hate and hot is cold.
Someone could claim that the assertion that science, logic and reason are the best ways to arrive at a decent approximation of reality is a dogmatic belief, but the free-thinking response to that claim is to say that if you've got a better, more reliable process, please demonstrate that to be true so that we can agree and adopt this new method.
Authority, tradition and revelation have already shown themselves to be lousy epistemologies, since they rely on telling people what to think, rather than how to think. Free thinkers want to use whatever method(s) work, and so necessarily reject dogma as a failure both empirically and in principle. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 05:03:37 [Permalink]
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| Do we really have to in this day and age defend reason, science, and freedom. Belief in God or the afterlife will never go away.But most people have conformed to science. The Center for Inquiry put emphasis defense of reason science.I see no reason for defense. Organized religion is dead although beleif in Gods exist. Science and reason are definetly the new Dogma |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 05:26:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Do we really have to in this day and age defend reason, science, and freedom. |
Yes, and you demonstrate the need, if not the practicality. Apparently "we" does not be include you, Storm, because of this kind of sloppy thinking:| Belief in God or the afterlife will never go away. |
These beliefs are going fast, though nobody expects them to entirely disappear.| But most people have conformed to science. The Center for Inquiry put emphasis defense of reason science.I see no reason for defense. Organized religion is dead although beleif in Gods exist. Science and reason are definetly the new Dogma |
Uh, bullshit? You don't really pay anyone attention, do you? Why, then should we pay attention to your endlessly repeated, even though laboriously corrected, misstatements of fact?
It boils down to this: We've demonstrated that science and reason work, and that other styles of brain operation do not. You say, no, that's not true, and tell us to quit even trying. Well, for me, in this particular case, I'll take that advise. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 07:16:36 [Permalink]
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I do not say to quit. can you be a free thinker or humanist if you do not beleive in God? Not beleiving in the existence of god can be called a... religion. I am a believer in science, in reason, remember my beliefs in ghosts,pk, etc that I have expressed has nothing to do with supernatural beliefs. They are just phenomena not yet understood by the scientific community or by anyone just yet. i have my theories based on investigations, obersvations.
I am on the site of Secular humanism. They have declarations and manifestos. What is the difference between manifesto, declaration, and dogma? I would not say my thinking is sloppy. Just Free |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 09:38:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
I would not say my thinking is sloppy. Just Free
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... or unencumbered. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 09:58:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
I do not say to quit. |
You had written:| Do we really have to in this day and age defend reason, science, and freedom. |
That, together with your comment about religion lasting forever, seemed to add up to "quit."| can you be a free thinker or humanist if you do not beleive in God? |
Of course! Most freethinkers and many humanists are atheists.| Not beleiving in the existence of god can be called a... religion. |
I could have called my dog a cat, but it wouldn't have made her one, and she would have been quite annoyed. Calling someone their polar opposite is annoying, too. But fundamentalists call atheism a religion exactly in order to be annoying, all the while knowing even better than we do what a nasty thing that is to say about atheism.| I am a believer in science, in reason, remember my beliefs in ghosts,pk, etc that I have expressed has nothing to do with supernatural beliefs. |
I've never herad that claim before. Of course, those are supernnatural beliefs, even if they aren't of a religious nature.| They are just phenomena not yet understood by the scientific community or by anyone just yet. i have my theories based on investigations, obersvations. |
No, those purported things are defined and explained by their promoters in a manner that usually makes them impossible for science to investigate, though sometimes people catch psychics and others at their "special effects." And people who catch them are often not formally scientists.| I am on the site of Secular humanism. They have declarations and manifestos. What is the difference between manifesto, declaration, and dogma? |
Honest, I think all those words are just fancy verbiage, to which the secular humanists who write them are welcome. But I doubt any of them would call their thinking "dogma."| I would not say my thinking is sloppy. Just Free |
It's certainly free of something.  |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 10:04:02 [Permalink]
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Storm:
Not beleiving in the existence of god can be called a... religion. |
Without evidence there is no reason to believe. That goes for a lot of things that have nothing to do with god. So is my beliefe that bigfoot doesn't exist is also a religion? By your criteria it is. If you want to expand the definition of religion to cover all beliefs and all non beliefs that's your prerogative. But it's not useful. If you are only talking about go beliefs than it's special pleading. A logical fallacy.
Storm:
...i have my theories based on investigations, obersvations. |
No you don't. At best you have a hypothesis that's based on things that have yet to be confirmed. It's like explaining how laetrile works even though there is no evidence that it works at all, and might even be harmful. "Theories" about how it might work makes no sense if it can't be confirmed that it does works. You can speculate all you like, but until you produce a ghost, you're putting the cart before the horse.
Storm:
...They have declarations and manifestos. |
No dogma. But I think a case could be made that humanism is a kind of religion in the very broadest sense of the term. (You know. They meet and have bake sales. And it sugests that humans are responsible for their actions and their morality, independent of revelation or the dictates of some deity.) But it's a godless religion that's based on the support of reason over dogma. If you can call the support of reason and logic and science dogma, even though all those methods leave revision open, based on new evidence and better methods, than you should learn what "dogma" is. But let me help you here. The creationist argument that biblical genesis MUST be taken literally as the word of god and therefor anything in science that doesn't support that conclusion MUST be wrong is dogma. No amount of evidence will change their view, even though their view is entirely faith based. Accept it or you will burn in hell, forever. Now that's dogma! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 10:29:51 [Permalink]
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I get a sense I need to add this:
"Dogma" is not the same as "Other people's thinking that I am have been unable to talk them out of." Nor is dogma a broad a term as "Anything and everything with which I disagree."
Certainly real dogma (like that of "Bible-believing" people) can't usually be changed by argument, but that doesn't make all other ways of thinking dogma.
Also, at some point, one's ability to argue coherently comes into question when one is arguing unsuccessfully with people who are reasonably open-minded. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2012 : 07:04:31 [Permalink]
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| So I am on the Free thought society website... how is it they they deny religion... wanna be free from the dogma of religion but yet at christmas time they put a tree of knowledge up...granted it had free thought books... but whats the difference...free thought books... cross or a nativity set.... dogma or declaration? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2012 : 10:41:00 [Permalink]
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Do I? Dogma is a beleif.. So maybe I should say the christmas tree and the nativity set is a symbol of christain Dogma. Actually its pagan. why would the free thinkers choose this religious symbol? So the christmas tree went from pagan to christian to free thinkers |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2012 : 14:06:53 [Permalink]
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i am perplexed. I went on to a site for reason rally. I scrolled down on the links they provide and I found one called Secular Judiasm... they claim to keep the jewish customs in practice but without a supernatural diety involved. Well how can they celebrate passover then? Is it like taking christ out of Christmas or i should say the pagan out of christmas. I though Humanism did not involve dieties. So celebrate the deity holidays without the deity |
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Free Thinking
