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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2012 : 08:15:29 [Permalink]
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| When this thread started I recalled reading the log of another "419 scam, scammer", a reverse sting so to speak. Not really a complete reversal because the intent is not to scam money from the 419er but to waste as much of the scammers time and if possible get them to spend their own money in the hopes of being successful in their own efforts. In the one I read, they got an individual to travel to a nearby town and wait for days to meat his intended victim to no avail. All along recieving excuses as to why there were delays and that the meeting was to happen very soon. As was expected the scammer was not happy being put out and made the victim for a change. As Kil's efforts play out I got to looking about for others doing the same thing and I found this, a short video which is pretty sweet and funny as to the answers given. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 11:30:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
but he gave us sin since we are born into it. After all Mom and Dad had to get busy in order to conceive us. |
Getting busy in marriage is not a sin.
| How has a newborn had any opportunity of transgressing any law? |
Have you ever seen a newborn get angry becasue they are simply tired? I would say that if they were 16 and reacted the same way they would punch someone out or worse. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 11:58:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
The Bible is clear that Jesus was sinless. |
Where at? |
Is 53:9, 1 Pet 2:22, 1 Jn 3:5, Heb 4:15, 2 Cor 5:21, Jn 8:46.
| We deserve punishment merely for having the capacity to sin?! |
No, I meant we deserve punishment when we sin.
No, God created everything, including evil. If God didn't need to give us the capacity to sin (allowing us to live sinless lives), then he gave us something we didn't require and punishes us for using it.
If a parent were to give a handgun to a toddler, and instruct the child not to use it, I would hope that in the event of a gunshot, you'd agree that punishing the kid would be idiotic. |
I don’t think this is the same. The child does not know it is wrong unless someone tells him it is wrong to use the gun. We all know god exists and have a conscience that tells us lying and murder is wrong. Romans 1:20.
| I didn't say that he makes us sin (of course, God doing things like hardening hearts makes claims of free will ludicrous), I said that he created evil. He invented the concept of evil, and gave us the ability to do evil things. These points are undeniable if you believe that god created the universe. If you believe in the veracity of the story of Adam and Eve, it's even more undeniable. |
The ability to do evil and doing evil are not the same thing.
| The only way a Christian can logically deny in a consistent fashion God's creation of evil is to insist that God didn't think that humans would ever use the capacity that he built into them, which is to deny God's omniscience, or that God had no choice but to make sin-capable humans, which is to deny God's omnipotence. But neither is consistent with the Biblical descriptions of God's character, so Christians wishing to take the blame for evil cannot do so in any consistent fashion, after all. |
The Bible does not say God can do anything. God cannot lie for instance; omnipotence in this sense is that God can do anything within his character to do. The Bible does say God knows everything that has and will happen including our sin. He knew we would choose sin and therefore need Jesus to die on our behalf.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 19:17:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Is 53:9, 1 Pet 2:22, 1 Jn 3:5, Heb 4:15, 2 Cor 5:21, Jn 8:46. |
Ah.| No, I meant we deserve punishment when we sin. |
Like merely thinking lewd thoughts?| I don’t think this is the same. The child does not know it is wrong unless someone tells him it is wrong to use the gun. |
And in my analogy, the child's parent told him exactly that. But it's a toddler, far too young to understand the consequences. Are we not like toddlers in intellect compared to God's wisdom?
But the Christian God is even more reprehensible than my original analogy implies. For my analogy to be more accurate, the parent (God) would have had to create the child (us) to his own specifications, and give the child the ability to fire a handgun (sin). If shooting is so dangerous, why not just build the child without fingers, or instill in the child an instinctive phobia of anything handgun-shaped?
No, because God gave us the ability to sin, he is necessarily responsible when we do. To then punish us (for eternity!) if we don't wish away this evil that is not of our making (thus refusing to engage something else that he gave us) is utterly despicable.| We all know god exists... |
No, we all do not know any such thing. I wouldn't be an atheist if I knew that God exists. Instead, I consider things like blasphemy to be "victimless crimes."| ...and have a conscience that tells us lying and murder is wrong. |
Yes, I don't need an ancient book or a dictatorial deity to understand such things. Empathy and the comprehension that other people are just like me suffice.That argument assumes its conclusion.| The ability to do evil and doing evil are not the same thing. |
And that doesn't mean that God didn't create evil. If you're going to define sin as transgression of God's law, the obvious rejoinder is that God created the law, and thus divided sin from non-sin before any humans ever existed. The concept of sin - which appears to be wholly unnecessary on its face - predates everything but God himself. He set the conditions, therefore he is directly responsible for the existence of evil in this universe.
To put it another way, if there were no Law, there would be no sin. Humans did not create the Law, therefore humans cannot be the cause of the existence of sin.
Understand that there is a difference between the commission of sin and its mere existence as a thing which could be committed. Just like there is a difference between the act of throwing something and the existence of things which might be thrown. I'm not talking about the act of sinning, I'm talking about the creation of the non-zero possibility that we might sin.| The Bible does not say God can do anything. |
"Almighty" suggests otherwise.| God cannot lie for instance; omnipotence in this sense is that God can do anything within his character to do. |
That's a convenient nonsense, since his character is not explicitly described. It must be inferred from words which must be interpreted, with all the problems that process entails.| The Bible does say God knows everything that has and will happen including our sin. He knew we would choose sin... |
He knew we would sin before creating any of us. How can we possibly be responsible for the existence of something that existed before we did?| ...and therefore need Jesus to die on our behalf. |
Don't get me started on the sick death-cult stuff in Christianity and the fake "sacrifice." If, after all, Jesus was wholly God (as you said), then he knew (omniscience) the exact sequence of events which would transpire, including his own ascension, and so he knew he would lose nothing of himself on the cross or afterwards, but instead reap the greatest reward possible (which, bizarrely, was joining himself in Heaven). That's no sacrifice. He did not suffer the worst torture imaginable nor did he suffer for very long. The idea that this non-extraordinary non-sacrifice "paid" for anyone else's sins should only appeal to those who think that justice is only attainable with violence or those who are too scared to ask forgiveness of the real people they might have harmed through their mistakes. Bloodlust and moral cowardice are the cornerstones of Christianity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 10:41:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And in my analogy, the child's parent told him exactly that. But it's a toddler, far too young to understand the consequences. Are we not like toddlers in intellect compared to God's wisdom? |
If a person breaks a law that person is guilty regardless of knowledge of the law or consequences.
| But the Christian God is even more reprehensible than my original analogy implies. For my analogy to be more accurate, the parent (God) would have had to create the child (us) to his own specifications, and give the child the ability to fire a handgun (sin). If shooting is so dangerous, why not just build the child without fingers, or instill in the child an instinctive phobia of anything handgun-shaped? |
Do you think God should force us to obey all of His laws? Wouldn’t that make him a tyrant? I don’t want a God forcing himself on us. Isn’t giving us a choice to follow him or not loving? Also, love cannot exist without a choice.
| And that doesn't mean that God didn't create evil. If you're going to define sin as transgression of God's law, the obvious rejoinder is that God created the law, and thus divided sin from non-sin before any humans ever existed. The concept of sin - which appears to be wholly unnecessary on its face - predates everything but God himself. He set the conditions, therefore he is directly responsible for the existence of evil in this universe. |
Do you think people have any responsibility for sin, assuming the bible is true?
| To put it another way, if there were no Law, there would be no sin. Humans did not create the Law, therefore humans cannot be the cause of the existence of sin. |
Well we have different opinions on that.
| Understand that there is a difference between the commission of sin and its mere existence as a thing which could be committed. Just like there is a difference between the act of throwing something and the existence of things which might be thrown. I'm not talking about the act of sinning, I'm talking about the creation of the non-zero possibility that we might sin. |
We don’t have to sin, Jesus fully man did not sin. But I know you reject that because he was fully god as well.
| “Almighty” suggests otherwise. |
Other parts of the Bible do not support your definition of almighty. The bible says clearly God cannot lie or sin.
| That's a convenient nonsense, since his character is not explicitly described. It must be inferred from words which must be interpreted, with all the problems that process entails. |
It is explicitly described throughout the Bible. I disagree with you here.
| Don't get me started on the sick death-cult stuff in Christianity and the fake "sacrifice." If, after all, Jesus was wholly God (as you said), then he knew (omniscience) the exact sequence of events which would transpire, including his own ascension, and so he knew he would lose nothing of himself on the cross or afterwards, but instead reap the greatest reward possible (which, bizarrely, was joining himself in Heaven). That's no sacrifice. He did not suffer the worst torture imaginable nor did he suffer for very long. The idea that this non-extraordinary non-sacrifice "paid" for anyone else's sins should only appeal to those who think that justice is only attainable with violence or those who are too scared to ask forgiveness of the real people they might have harmed through their mistakes. Bloodlust and moral cowardice are the cornerstones of Christianity. |
Well, you can hold this view and the others you have, God gave you that choice. But your view on theology is not the view of the traditional church and the reformers and I don’t think it is based on a comprehensive study of the Bible either. For example if the term “almighty” is looked at in view of the entire bible then it clearly does not mean that god can sin or your take on Jesus crucifixion is different than what the bible says about it.
I hope you change your mind someday; the Bible is inclusive in that all can be saved.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 13:49:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
If a person breaks a law that person is guilty regardless of knowledge of the law or consequences. |
No, we don't jail toddlers.| Do you think God should force us to obey all of His laws? Wouldn’t that make him a tyrant? |
He already is a tyrant. But given his omniscience, free will is necessarily an illusion anyway. We're forced to behave however God forsaw us behave.| I don’t want a God forcing himself on us. |
He already does. "Follow me or die forever" is coercive.| Isn’t giving us a choice to follow him or not loving? |
"Follow me or die forever" isn't a choice, it's a threat, no different from "your money or your life" or "fly to Argentina or I'll blow up the airplane."| Also, love cannot exist without a choice. |
Since I don't agree that your God is loving, this means nothing.| Do you think people have any responsibility for sin, assuming the bible is true? |
If it were all considered fiction, I wouldn't care. If the Bible is true, then God is a monster, and since he set everything up, the proverbial buck must stop with him.| To put it another way, if there were no Law, there would be no sin. Humans did not create the Law, therefore humans cannot be the cause of the existence of sin. |
Well we have different opinions on that. |
If I divide up the alphabet and claim that C, O, N, V, I, E and D are evil letters and anyone using them should be punished, would you accept that responsibility for your choice of user name here on SFN? I should hope not.Apparently you're not grasping the "sin as something which might be committed" distinction. Sin as a concept was created by God.| Other parts of the Bible do not support your definition of almighty. The bible says clearly God cannot lie or sin. |
The Bible says a lot of things. Apparently ordering people to rip babies out of their mothers' wombs isn't sinful. Go figure.
Are things "good" because God says they are good, or is God just pointing out goodness which comes from some other source?| It is explicitly described throughout the Bible. I disagree with you here. |
Which translation?| Well, you can hold this view and the others you have, God gave you that choice. |
No, he didn't.| But your view on theology is not the view of the traditional church and the reformers... |
Of course it isn't. If it were, there would be no traditional church or reformers.| ...and I don’t think it is based on a comprehensive study of the Bible either. |
You're absolutely correct, there: reading too much of it sickens me.| ...your take on Jesus crucifixion is different than what the bible says about it. |
In what way, exactly?| I hope you change your mind someday; the Bible is inclusive in that all can be saved. |
No, the Bible speaks of reprobates several times.
If I am ever truly saved, it'll be because God forced it on me against my will. I would never voluntarily worship such a repugnant beast. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 14:07:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Do you think people have any responsibility for sin, assuming the bible is true? |
Let me answer this one another way, too: if the Bible is nothing but lies, then humans bear all responsibility for the mistakes they make and the purposeful harm they cause, and the only way to properly assuage their guilt is to beg forgiveness from those they have wronged.
Jesus gives the moral cowards of the world a way out of having to apologize. If Jesus forgives all of our sins, then we don't need to get the courage to face those we have wronged and say, "I'm sorry." It's no wonder Jesus is so popular. He's a "Get Out of Guilt Free" card in the game of Life. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 17:54:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, Kil: any updates on Miss Hazina?
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Miss Hazina became rather short with me. I should post that letter. I think I will respond to it eventually, and mostly I haven't because I forgot. Duh!
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Soooo, where is it? |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 18:21:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, Kil: any updates on Miss Hazina?
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Miss Hazina became rather short with me. I should post that letter. I think I will respond to it eventually, and mostly I haven't because I forgot. Duh!
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Soooo, where is it?
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Here's the deal. I've been at my sisters most of the week, building her cabinets in repayment for the help my family is giving me. (Beats sitting at home fretting.) And I did an actual paying two day job the last couple of days. So I haven't really had the time. I'll get to it this weekend, I think. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 21:03:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
And I did an actual paying two day job the last couple of days. So I haven't really had the time. I'll get to it this weekend, I think. |
Real work, congrats! Hey, that comes first. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 07:07:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Do you think people have any responsibility for sin, assuming the bible is true? |
Let me answer this one another way, too: if the Bible is nothing but lies, then humans bear all responsibility for the mistakes they make and the purposeful harm they cause, and the only way to properly assuage their guilt is to beg forgiveness from those they have wronged. |
People bear all responsibility for the mistakes they make if the bible is true as well. The bible says we are to go out of our way to forgive each other.
Jesus gives the moral cowards of the world a way out of having to apologize. If Jesus forgives all of our sins, then we don't need to get the courage to face those we have wronged and say, "I'm sorry." It's no wonder Jesus is so popular. He's a "Get Out of Guilt Free" card in the game of Life.
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Mathew 5:23-24 commands us to reconcile with people that have grievences against us. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 10:59:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
If a person breaks a law that person is guilty regardless of knowledge of the law or consequences. |
No, we don't jail toddlers. |
I did not say punishment but guilt. If I go faster than the speed limit I am guilty of breaking the law no matter if I am punished or not.
| DoHe already is a tyrant. But given his omniscience, free will is necessarily an illusion anyway. We're forced to behave however God forsaw us behave. |
No. The way I see it is if I offer my young daughter a piece of her favorite candy I am 99% sure she will answer yes, but I did not make her take the candy.
| "Follow me or die forever" is coercive. |
That’s not the gospel. To tell a blind man who is about to walk off a cliff to turn around or you are going to die is not unjustifiably coercive. Just as a doctor that tells a patient they have to have surgery or they will die is not unjustifiably coercive (unless you go to benny hinn  ).
Also, love cannot exist without a choice.| Since I don't agree that your God is loving, this means nothing. |
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Do you want the people in your life to love you because you force them to or do you want them to choose to love you?
| If I divide up the alphabet and claim that C, O, N, V, I, E and D are evil letters and anyone using them should be punished, would you accept that responsibility for your choice of user name here on SFN? I should hope not. |
I would abide by the SFN creators rules.
| The Bible says a lot of things. Apparently ordering people to rip babies out of their mothers' wombs isn't sinful. Go figure. |
Are you referring to Hosea 13:16? In this case God is warning the northern tribe what the consequences of their sin will be when the invasion occurs that is talked about in 2 kings 17. This did not have to happen. If you read chapter 14 it is God begging the people to repent of their sinful ways and come back to Gods way of doing things.
| your take on Jesus crucifixion is different than what the bible says about it. |
You said Jesus sacrifice was not sufficient. God says otherwise.
| If I am ever truly saved, it'll be because God forced it on me against my will. I would never voluntarily worship such a repugnant beast. |
Free will in action.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 11:17:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
People bear all responsibility for the mistakes they make if the bible is true as well. |
Being responsible for a mistake means having a duty to fix it. If faith washes away sin, then there is no such duty. If faith in Christ alone assures my place in Heaven, and I develop such a faith, then why should I not lie, steal and murder?| The bible says we are to go out of our way to forgive each other. |
Oh, sure. But it doesn't seem to command asking forgiveness from each other...| Mathew 5:23-24 commands us to reconcile with people that have grievences against us. |
...unless you want to leave an offering at the altar, which is a common Christian practice these days, isn't it?
Taken not quite so literally, it seems to me that Matthew 5:23-24 instructs people to ask forgiveness of others in order to do something else, and not because it's the morally responsible thing to do. Even if Jesus had said something like, "if you've wronged someone, make it right or else you won't go to Heaven," it'd necessarily generate many insincere apologies from people just looking out for their own salvation. But "good works" don't help ensure salvation at all, do they?
Or are you Catholic? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 13:13:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
People bear all responsibility for the mistakes they make if the bible is true as well. |
Being responsible for a mistake means having a duty to fix it. If faith washes away sin, then there is no such duty. If faith in Christ alone assures my place in Heaven, and I develop such a faith, then why should I not lie, steal and murder? |
Romans 5-7 deals with this.
| unless you want to leave an offering at the altar, which is a common Christian practice these days, isn't it? |
I don't understand what you are saying.
| Taken not quite so literally, it seems to me that Matthew 5:23-24 instructs people to ask forgiveness of others in order to do something else, and not because it's the morally responsible thing to do. Even if Jesus had said something like, "if you've wronged someone, make it right or else you won't go to Heaven," it'd necessarily generate many insincere apologies from people just looking out for their own salvation. But "good works" don't help ensure salvation at all, do they? |
Christians forgive because we have been forgiven for more than has been transgressed against us by others. We see people as better than ourselves and realize it is hypocritical to have been forgiven by god and not to forgive others. The Bible says to forgive others no matter if they forgive you or no matter their reaction. This rarely happens with non believers.
No. Catholics teach the heresey of universalism where everyone gets saved no matter what they do, even apart from Jesus. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 15:18:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I did not say punishment but guilt. If I go faster than the speed limit I am guilty of breaking the law no matter if I am punished or not. |
No, toddlers are not held responsible for even very serious mistakes they make, because they don't generally comprehend either the law or the consequences. We cannot comprehend the consequences of our failure to have faith in God, because God will not tell us his grand plan for the universe. Yet you think being held responsible for acting in a state of intentional (not by us) ignorance is a good thing. I think you have beaten-spouse syndrome.| No. The way I see it is if I offer my young daughter a piece of her favorite candy I am 99% sure she will answer yes, but I did not make her take the candy. |
Yeah, because humans aren't omniscient. Even 99% surety is not omniscience. God knew whether she would take the candy or not, and so she had no choice but to do as God foresaw, since to do otherwise would be to prove God wrong.Then what are the consequences if I fail to have faith? Jesus seems pretty explicit with the lake of fire stuff and eternity talk.| To tell a blind man who is about to walk off a cliff to turn around or you are going to die is not unjustifiably coercive. |
No, God created the cliff. To put a cliff in front of a walking blind man and then offer him safety in return for obedience is coercive. You can't let God off the hook from creating the universe, including all the cliffs and our own blindness. He made us blind. On purpose.| Just as a doctor that tells a patient they have to have surgery or they will die is not unjustifiably coercive (unless you go to benny hinn ). |
When the doctor also creates the disease, and expects certain behaviors in return for that surgery, it is unjustifiably coercive. It's the plot of the beginning scenes of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom: bad guy gives poisons Indiana, and offers to trade the antidote for the treasure. Not unjustifiably coercive my Aunt Fanny.| Do you want the people in your life to love you because you force them to or do you want them to choose to love you? |
My mere mortal desires surely aren't analogous to God's motivations. If they are, that's all the more reason to judge God as evil. I don't know why God would want anything from us, the playthings he created, so to ask me if I think God would want us to freely choose to love him is nonsensical.| If I divide up the alphabet and claim that C, O, N, V, I, E and D are evil letters and anyone using them should be punished, would you accept that responsibility for your choice of user name here on SFN? I should hope not. |
I would abide by the SFN creators rules. |
Good grief, why?! What possible reason would you have for following such capricious nonsense? We're not even offering you eternal life in return for your compliance.| Are you referring to Hosea 13:16? In this case God is warning the northern tribe what the consequences of their sin will be when the invasion occurs that is talked about in 2 kings 17. This did not have to happen. If you read chapter 14 it is God begging the people to repent of their sinful ways and come back to Gods way of doing things. |
I may be misremembering. But such a threat is still vile. And so is sending lions to kill unbelievers (2 Kings 17:24-26), or an angel to slaughter an army (2 Kings 19:35). Sodom and Gomorrah. The plagues of Egypt. Job. Etc. It's quite easy to find examples of God doing or threatening to do horrible things.| You said Jesus sacrifice was not sufficient. |
I said it should only be seen as sufficient for moral cowards or those with blood-lust.Which is exactly why I think the God described in the Bible is morally deficient.| If I am ever truly saved, it'll be because God forced it on me against my will. I would never voluntarily worship such a repugnant beast. |
Free will in action. |
How so? How do you know that God hasn't hardened my heart? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Someone loves me!!!
