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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2012 :  17:39:08  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We all can't escape all the press on the Republican wanting to require a "Traditional Bible Based Marriage in Law. Even if they have no clue what that would really be, as it is in the Bible.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS

Edited by - sailingsoul on 05/18/2012 17:41:05

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2012 :  22:24:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good one! This chart, with similar references, is from Atheist Overload:


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2012 :  22:41:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...that would be more of a torah based marriage

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  02:55:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

...that would be more of a torah based marriage

Traditional Bible based Marriage.

If you have other examples, please quote passage and explain how it applies in superseding the examples posted by HalfMooner.

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  02:57:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
it's just funny how whenever people want to quote-mine to show how dastardly the bible is, it's usually to prove a point to Christians. Yet the vast majority of the time the quotes are from the first 5 books of the bible. Really their attack is primarily against Jews.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  04:21:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

it's just funny how whenever people want to quote-mine to show how dastardly the bible is, it's usually to prove a point to Christians.
I'm glad you found it funny.
Yet the vast majority of the time the quotes are from the first 5 books of the bible. Really their attack is primarily against Jews.
Wasn't Jesus a Jew?

Did Jesus say to ignore the Torah? Did he define marriage as most of us see it today? Did he say gays should have less rights, for that matter?

This kind of "quote mining" of the Bible is like getting coal out of a coal mine: it's easy because it's all around in huge, black seams just for the digging.

The call to slay gays in Leviticus is quoted by the more bigoted Christians all the time, but why do most of them ignore the kinds of marriage commanded by god in the Old Testament?

Who's really quote mining and cherry-picking?

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  04:53:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well at the moment I'm doing neither, since I've made no stance and quoted nothing.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  07:59:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

it's just funny how whenever people want to quote-mine to show how dastardly the bible is, it's usually to prove a point to Christians. Yet the vast majority of the time the quotes are from the first 5 books of the bible. Really their attack is primarily against Jews.
Jesus refuted this argument in Matthew 5:18. As does the fact that so many alleged Christians revere the Ten Commandments and Genesis, despite Paul's warning (contrary to Jesus' words) in Titus against giving credence to "old Jewish fables."

Even Jew-hating Martin Luther included the Pentateuch in his version of the Bible, so those books must be considered vital to giving Protestant Christians an understanding of the "Word of God." I can't find any Christian sect which considers them to be apocryphal.

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  17:23:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yet if they were the be all and end all Jesus need not have been born...

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  18:51:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Yet if they were the be all and end all Jesus need not have been born...
Great, we can ignore Jesus, then. If the Old Testament can be disregarded, then there's no evidence that Jesus fulfilled any prophecies, and thus the idea that he is Messiah is debunked. And what he said about the OT and its 613 Commandments - direct quotes from Jesus in the Bible - can be ignored when it's inconvenient.

I'm all for that, of course. Especially the bit about having to follow those barbaric laws. Why would you support it, though?

Seriously: Allegedly, Christ was Jewish, he was the OT God come down to Earth in human form; he observed the Jewish holidays, stated without ambiguity that Jewish laws will apply until the Earth no longer exists, and went beyond that to insist that those laws didn't just apply to actions but to thoughts. The man who almost single-handedly began Protestantism considered the Old Testament to be as important and equally divinely inspired as the New. And you want to ignore all that because you find it inconvenient that biblical marriage wasn't always between one man and one woman who were loving, family-oriented people? Are you so opposed to same-sex marriage that you're willing to declare the factual history of your religion moot?

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  19:59:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OFFC:
...Yet the vast majority of the time the quotes are from the first 5 books of the bible. Really their attack is primarily against Jews.

It is disingenuous to suggest that Christians do not cite verses like Leviticus 20:13 pretty regularly.

Andy Gipson, Mississippi GOP Lawmaker, Blasts Gays, Cites Bible Passage Calling For Their Death

Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, and a "man who lies with a man"

On Homosexuality, Is Leviticus 20:13 All That Christians Need to Know?


Does the Bible approve of some homosexual relationships?


Does the Bible Condemn Homosexuality?

Today's Family Issues

And so on. I could go on like this almost forever. Of course this could be called quote mining or confirmation bias. But that's exactly why I included Billy Graham and Pat Robertson, among others. Not exactly people you would call low profile Christians.




Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2012 :  22:51:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't remember saying Christians do not cite those verses. So I guess I have not been disingenuous. Good to know.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2012 :  00:48:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I don't remember saying Christians do not cite those verses. So I guess I have not been disingenuous. Good to know.
Hmmm. To me, this . . .
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

it's just funny how whenever people want to quote-mine to show how dastardly the bible is, it's usually to prove a point to Christians. Yet the vast majority of the time the quotes are from the first 5 books of the bible. Really their attack is primarily against Jews.
. . . certainly looked like you were ducking your Christian head and hoping the shot hit the Jews instead. (Are there no Biblical literalists in foxholes?) This, despite the regular cherry-picking references to the Old Testament by so many literalist fundamentalists, especially concerning the kinds of mating habits that they disapprove of.

If one is going to say in effect, "Hey, that was just some crazy stuff the Jews said," then one should not rely so much upon the other sayings of those Jews. Besides, isn't the whole Bible supposed to have been written down as the word of god, not just the Jews?

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2012 :  01:46:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
. . . certainly looked like you were ducking your Christian head and hoping the shot hit the Jews instead. (Are there no Biblical literalists in foxholes?)


Well maybe that's a perception problem on your part. Best to just stick to the facts and not try to infer things.

This, despite the regular cherry-picking references to the Old Testament by so many literalist fundamentalists, especially concerning the kinds of mating habits that they disapprove of.


Right. It doesn't really matter WHO is quote mining. It has no relevance to my observation. Which, again, was that I find it amusing that the quotations most often thrown at Christians come from the first 5 books of the Bible (ignoring the other 61, or 68 for Catholics). Those 5 books represent a much larger proportion of the Jewish canon. So you could say that the attack is proportionally more relevant to Jews.

Your flip side that many literalists use the same quotes on the other side of the argument is also interesting. Perhaps the only passages referring directly to these most heated issues are in the Torah. Really Jewish scholars should be looking into these things.


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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2012 :  03:43:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

. . . certainly looked like you were ducking your Christian head and hoping the shot hit the Jews instead. (Are there no Biblical literalists in foxholes?)


Well maybe that's a perception problem on your part. Best to just stick to the facts and not try to infer things.

This, despite the regular cherry-picking references to the Old Testament by so many literalist fundamentalists, especially concerning the kinds of mating habits that they disapprove of.


Right. It doesn't really matter WHO is quote mining. It has no relevance to my observation. Which, again, was that I find it amusing that the quotations most often thrown at Christians come from the first 5 books of the Bible (ignoring the other 61, or 68 for Catholics). Those 5 books represent a much larger proportion of the Jewish canon. So you could say that the attack is proportionally more relevant to Jews.

Your flip side that many literalists use the same quotes on the other side of the argument is also interesting. Perhaps the only passages referring directly to these most heated issues are in the Torah. Really Jewish scholars should be looking into these things.


Still, you squirm and you quibble, but do not come anywhere near to addressing answering the problem of the horrible, psychotically patriarchal and brutal marriage arrangements "ordered" by your god. Your silence on that real issue is deafening.

The point of the our quote mining is to demonstrate the inarguable fact that there really is much that is self-contradictory, and much which is insanely cruel in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. Of necessity, modern Christians pick and choose what to quote (ignoring that the Bible says the earth is flat, and that bats are birds, are very minor examples).

It's not "quote mining" in a pejorative sense if both our intent and method is to point out such overall conflicts with reality, generally accepted morality, or logical consistency by believers. We skeptics don't ignore the parts of the Bible that don't make our point.

It is cherry-picking when one builds an entire "infallible" faith by carefully selecting what is and what is not to be taken seriously in the "word of god." Pointing out how the quote mining by believers has constantly changed, despite the "eternal truth" of the whole Bible, is instructive of the wholly human nature of religion.

Don't try to dump this problem in the laps of the Jews. It's your Old Testament, too, and so your problem to address.

Of course you won't address this in any substantial way, because you know you have no facts on your side, and can't win. The long, slow, bitter, rear-guard defense of the Bible continues with neither ammunition nor hope of victory.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/20/2012 12:18:20
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2012 :  07:37:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

So you could say that the attack is proportionally more relevant to Jews.
I guess my previous post wasn't clear enough: Christianity is nothing more than a post-Messianic Jewish sect.

Jesus made it crystal clear that God expects you to follow the Mosaic laws. You should still be making sacrifices. And killing people who work on the Sabbath. And ritually cleaning yourself if you touch a woman on her period.

Is it wise to ignore Jesus' own words? Again, Matthew 5:17-20 (and specifically to this discussion, Matthew 5:42). Matthew 8:4. Matthew 10:5,6. Matthew 15:3-6 and very much 24. Matthew 23:2,3. The number of references to OT verses within Matthew is also impressive.

Seems like Christianity's rejection of Jewish law has come from corrupters of Jesus' teachings, like Peter and Paul.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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