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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 11:43:30 [Permalink]
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A good response to those Tweeting that they feel safe at TAM:Congratulations! You are a woman who feels safe at #TAM2012 - I am too! This does not invalidate the harassment policy debate. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2012 : 12:11:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Quit blaming the victim.
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I'm not blaming the Rebecca. I don't see Rebecca as a victim. I simply stated that I don't feel that she did do as much as she could have done, with what she has to work with, in defusing the situation as it continually played out. Not that DJ Grothe hasn't screwed up in his own right. What a train wreck. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 13:50:07 [Permalink]
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Well, I posted my little parody over in a thread at Pharyngula and PZ liked it so much he put it on the front page! I feel so honored.  |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 14:46:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Well, I posted my little parody over in a thread at Pharyngula and PZ liked it so much he put it on the front page! I feel so honored.
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Nice going, HH. And a clever dialogue, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 18:56:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
I'm not blaming the Rebecca. I don't see Rebecca as a victim. I simply stated that I don't feel that she did do as much as she could have done, with what she has to work with, in defusing the situation as it continually played out. |
Yes, you're blaming her for not being able to proactively correct ignorance of and gross misrepresentations of her statements.
And how could you not see her as a victim?Over the past several years, I’ve been groped, grabbed, touched in other nonconsensual ways, told I can expect to be raped, told I’m a whore, a slut, a bitch, a prude, a dyke, a cunt, a twat, told I should watch my back at conferences, told I’m too ugly to be raped, told I don’t have a say in my own treatment because I’ve posed for sexy photos, told I should get a better headshot because that one doesn’t convey how sexy I am in person, told I deserve to be raped – by skeptics and atheists. All by skeptics and atheists. Constantly. | Not that DJ Grothe hasn't screwed up in his own right. |
Indeed, he is not a victim at all, but rather the guy who made a conscious decision to single-out Rebecca Watson for driving down female attendance at TAM, with the utterly foreseeable consequence of spiking the misogynist outrage at Watson of the previous year all over again.And it isn't helped by writing forums comments without all the facts. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 21:02:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Didn't you used to go by "H.H." at Pharyngula?
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Yeah, I did. I don't remember why I started posting on that other name, (lost password or something), but it's the one I use most everyplace else. H.H. is actually the anomaly. I started that name here, then carried it over to all the science/skepticism sites I visited for consistency's sake.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 21:11:55 [Permalink]
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According to Twitter, astronomer Pamela Gay gave a talk about sexual harassment at conventions that refutes the trolls, and got a standing ovation.
Details are lacking, need to wait for the video. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 21:13:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I don't remember why I started posting on that other name, (lost password or something), but it's the one I use most everyplace else. |
Does the number have some special significance? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 22:03:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I don't remember why I started posting on that other name, (lost password or something), but it's the one I use most everyplace else. |
Does the number have some special significance?
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Heh, yeah. When my Dad first started us on the internet, he made an AOL account with that number in it that we all logged onto. When it came time to make my screen name, I just reused the same numbers because I was already used to typing them. I never considered whether they had any special significance. It was only years later that my sister asked "Why do you have Dad's birthday as your screen name?"  |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 02:45:52 [Permalink]
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HH wrote: | Well, I posted my little parody over in a thread at Pharyngula and PZ liked it so much he put it on the front page! I feel so honored. |
Sweet! I just linked to it and "liked" it on FB. The fire comparison is perfect, and of course that it was also funny is a bonus! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 03:03:58 [Permalink]
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| Dave, where did you hear about what it allegedly on the back of H. Hall's shirt about her not being a skepchick? Was that ever confirmed? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 03:38:16 [Permalink]
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When I Googled "Paula Kirby" an "feminazi" I soon found this essay she wrote on July 1st, linked to from PZ's blog. Kirby criticizes what she calls "The Sisterhood of Oppression" (which is how she's characterizing Watson and others on that side of this debate, that should have just been a discussion) for:
Hysterical, bullying overreaction to dissent? Attempting to make it so unpleasant for
anyone who dares to oppose them that others are deterred from trying it? Utter
conviction that their own ideology is absolutely right and just, and that no questioning
of it can therefore ever be permitted? Yes, yes and yes. |
At no point does she give examples of such extreme behavior on the part of anyone representing the "Sisterhood".
Further on in the essay: What's more, the whole furore has only
made matters worse for women: firstly, by effectively telling them they'd have to be
mad to risk getting involved in skepticism; |
She's making my brain hurt. Rebecca Watson certainly hasn't suggested anything of the sort. And who among her prominent supporters has? None. Watson began a public dialogue about an issue of concern within our movement. She decided to not go to TAM, she didn't decide to drop out of skepticism. Argh.
secondly, by consistently sending out the
singularly unhelpful message that they are victims and will face nothing but
oppression; |
Yet she is accusing the "Sisterhood" of overreacting.
and thirdly, by reinforcing all the negative sexist stereotyping that many
real feminists have been working so hard over many years to overcome. |
My irony meter just exploded.
For years
women were kept out of positions of influence because of the stereotypical image of
them as hysterical, over-emotional, over-subjective, irrational, over-delicate, etc. And
for years, real women have been working very hard to demonstrate the injustice of
that stereotype. Frankly, when I see precisely those characteristics being paraded
with pride by people who have the gall to call themselves feminists (and to dismiss
those who disagree with them as misogynist), I am utterly disgusted. |
I'm not disgusted. Just utterly bewildered.
Yes, this has definitely gotten weird.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/15/2012 03:38:47 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 04:03:08 [Permalink]
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The other thing that Kirby does in her essay that bugs me is appealing to the cult of hyper-individualism we have here in America. The same sort of thinking that gets people saying crap like, "People need to pick themselves up by their bootstraps." She acknowledges that women are disproportionately underrepresented and that is a bad thing that enlightened people want to remedy, she acknowledges that at least part of the problem is with the way women are socialized in our culture, but she dismisses actual discrimination as nothing more than an "occasional Neanderthal" and the only solution she advocates is individual women ignoring these hard realities and "we just need to do it."
There is a kernel of wisdom in what she's saying. It definitely doesn't help anyone to think of themselves as a victim. Simply knowing about a stereotype can help enforce it. However, what happens at the level of the individual is quite different from what happens on the level of large groups. There are always individuals who defy expectations, who don't fit into stereotypes, who overcome adversity, or who don't suffer form as much adversity as other in their general demographic. But when speaking about larger social issues, that's beside the point. Individuals don't live or function in isolation. We are not solely responsible for either our successes or our failures. There is always a mountain of influences behind the fate of any individual. Parents, teachers, mentors, spouses, friends, counselors, chance, and so on all play pivotal roles. Nobody just does it. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/15/2012 04:03:39 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 05:58:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dave, where did you hear about what it allegedly on the back of H. Hall's shirt about her not being a skepchick? Was that ever confirmed? |
I first read in the comments at Ophelia Benson's blog that it was on Twitter, and when I went to check, I found the slogan re-Tweeted with approval by Travis Roy (who now gets even less respect from me) from Wendy Hughes. But they didn't specifically say it was Harriet Hall's shirt. Searching more, I found this photo which claims it's Hall's shirt, and it looks to be on the same person as in the photo at Ophelia's. Other folks were Tweeting about the stir that Hall's shirt created, and nobody was Tweeting that there were two different shirts spiting Watson and the Skepchicks. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rebecca Watson Not Appearing at TAM
