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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 19:02:52 [Permalink]
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Yeah. But at least there was a conduct code. And there will be one this year. No doubt the language will be stronger.
Do me a favor. Find me the other atheist or skeptic cons that had a conduct code before TAM did. Dave. It looks to me like your digging for anything now. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2012 : 21:22:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Yeah. But at least there was a conduct code. |
Would there have been one if some schmuck on Twitter hadn't repeatedly threatened to grope Rebecca Watson in an elevator at TAM9? That's the major irony in all this: the motivation for the code was to protect the one person that Grothe singled out as the problem last week.| And there will be one this year. |
A code of conduct is still not an anti-harassment policy.| No doubt the language will be stronger. |
Given that Grothe dismissed serious concerns as "locker room talk" and real complaints as the regrets of women who'd put out, I'd say that there's quite a lot of room for doubt.| Do me a favor. Find me the other atheist or skeptic cons that had a conduct code before TAM did. |
The entire community has this ongoing problem. A simple-minded code of conduct does not fix it. That was, at best, a first step. TAM cannot rest on its laurels - continually pointing to a single blog post and its repetition in TAM9 programs - but must progress or lose its participants, as it has already lost over half of last years' female contingency. That was, after all, what Grothe was complaining about when he tried to blame and shame Watson recently.
Other conventions have gone beyond what TAM has done, in just the last three weeks. Why aren't you asking why TAM isn't at least keeping pace with them? TAM is no longer in the vanguard of protecting people from unfair treatment. Grothe is currently making a mockery of the effort put forth last year, by effectively denying that it was even needed and throwing long-term TAM supporters and even speakers under the bus, while other atheist/secular/skeptic groups are publicly stating what they will do to at least try to make the situation better.| It looks to me like your digging for anything now. |
I understand that you've got intimate connections to TAM, Kil. But Grothe's actions since TAM9 are undeniably part of the reason that there is so much outrage right now. Trying to defuse things with false equivalencies does the opposite of helping. I don't think that you could possibly consider even unfair online criticism and name-calling of Grothe as morally bad as the actual harassment of a single woman at TAM, so why even come close to implying it?
We have rock-solid evidence that Grothe is shooting TAM in the foot, in the form of women who have either implied or stated outright that due to Grothe's statements they will not attend TAM 2012. So let me turn this around on you and ask if you can point to even a single woman who has publicly stated that she is going to attend TAM only because of what Grothe has said about Watson, or Miller, or any of the feminists on Freethought Blogs? Show me that Grothe's own activities have been having a negligible or even positive effect on TAM 2012 attendance by women, and I will agree that much of the criticism of him is unfair. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 23:26:02 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Why aren't you asking why TAM isn't at least keeping pace with them? |
I am. I haven't changed my position on this. And I'm as dismayed as anyone is.
And Grothe is probably at least in part wrong about why the female attendance has dropped off this year. I keep seeing woman dropping out because of a lack of funds and because there are skeptical events closer to home and cheaper. For guys, TAM is skeptic central. I don't think woman care as much about that in the same way they don't care about skeptic forums as much as guys do. Also, the speaker list last year was the most steller ever. I don't think the guys care as much about that as the woman do. And I know that not everyone is in tune with any of this stuff. Jamila Bey is sending a woman to TAM on a scholarship because she can't make it. And the woman I know who are regulars are mostly saying they will be there. The DJ mistake probably doesn't come close to effecting the drop off in woman as other factors did before all of this went down. Now it's probably having some effect, but not as much as you would think. Most of that 18% are still going. I know several of them. I strongly doubt that the other 22% are mostly staying away because they are concerned about their safety.
I support Watsons choice. I always have. And I think DJ needs to do more, and I'm baffled by his comments. Probably as much as you are. But mark my words. There will be a much stronger statement this year, and much more followthrough than there has been in the past, no matter how DJ is trying to frame it.
I just can't get into the poster thing and dissing the first ever code of conduct statement ever at a skeptic or atheist event, even if it did come about because of RW. Does it really matter who raised the awareness that such a statement was a good thing? It was still a good beginning. I don't like the way DJ is handling this, but I just can't get into taking this beyond where I think it should go. It's on topic to criticize the mistakes that DJ is making here and now. Those posters bother me because they do vilify DJ. Why do we need that kind of stuff? How is it helpful? |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 00:57:47 [Permalink]
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| It's a well known fact that DJ Grothe doesn't like girls. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 06:52:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
It's a well known fact that DJ Grothe doesn't like girls.
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What he Sam Holy Fuck does this have to do with anything? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 09:16:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
It's a well known fact that DJ Grothe doesn't like girls.
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What he Sam Holy Fuck does this have to do with anything?
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He's kidding. At least I think he is. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2012 : 13:15:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I just can't get into the poster thing and dissing the first ever code of conduct statement ever at a skeptic or atheist event... |
That code of conduct is a problem when Grothe defenders are calling it an "anti-harassment policy" and saying "TAM was first" as if it somehow insulates Grothe from criticism.
The GrotheBot 5000 ("the poster thing") is merely a symptom of the frustration people are experiencing after it became clear that Grothe wasn't going to answer a lot of questions or actually clarify himself.| Those posters bother me because they do vilify DJ. |
Most of them point out Grothe's hypocrisy using Grothe's own statements and actions. If that's vilifying, then Grothe is doing it to himself. Some of them miss the mark (especially the one or two created by Grothe supporters in an attempt at fighting back).| Why do we need that kind of stuff? How is it helpful? |
For the people who made them, I imagine it lets off steam. It's better than four-letter words filling up Grothe's inbox. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 19:53:07 [Permalink]
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| Stephanie Zvan is now reporting about a guy who has (according to several sources) been at at least one (maybe more) TAM with an "upskirt camera." He's been reported to TAM staff multiple times, but the complainants report back nothing but frustration with how TAM handled (or didn't) the situation. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2012 : 14:24:52 [Permalink]
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Ophelia Benson, who accepted an invitation to speak at TAM 2012 long before DJ started the latest mess, commented about the choice she faces to go or not go to TAM:...I’m doomed no matter what I do. I’ll get a ton of shit if I don’t go and a ton of shit up close and personal if I do.
Thanks a lot, DJ. Nice job. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2012 : 14:44:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Ophelia Benson, who accepted an invitation to speak at TAM 2012 long before DJ started the latest mess, commented about the choice she faces to go or not go to TAM:...I’m doomed no matter what I do. I’ll get a ton of shit if I don’t go and a ton of shit up close and personal if I do.
Thanks a lot, DJ. Nice job.
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I hope she chooses to go. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2012 : 09:05:03 [Permalink]
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Tim Farley has taken matters into his own hands, by pointing out how good Southpoint Security is. That doesn't erase erase DJ's blunders, or that woman weren't harassed, nor does he suggest that it does. But at least the SP staff takes this stuff seriously:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=238017 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2012 : 12:38:59 [Permalink]
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Okay, the transcript for The Great Penis Debate is now up. I was particularly interested in this because one of the participants is Travis Roy, who'd you'd mentioned earlier, Kil. In part III, he says:If Ophelia Benson, if that’s her name, she compared TAM—not directly, but insinuated—Nazi Germany, and all this other stuff...
...As for as I’m concerned, Ophelia should say “I think this place is unsafe. I think it’s Nazi Germany” or whatever the exact quote that she said it was, and “I’m not going to speak there because this is how I feel about it”. So Travis Roy doesn't care enough to read Benson's actual words (he quotes other people directly, why not her?), but still thinks his opinion about her is valid? Later, Travis insists that Rebecca Watson was specifically saying that she isn't attending TAM because TAM isn't a safe place, even though in her post (which Travis Roy was reading from) she specifically said that she's not going because of DJ's comments.
The guy is definitely not going to earn my respect that way.
The whole "debate" is stomach-turning. Travis Roy's small part in it didn't show him to be a reasonable person looking for reasonable solutions to this real problem. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2012 : 17:04:58 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Later, Travis insists that Rebecca Watson was specifically saying that she isn't attending TAM because TAM isn't a safe place, even though in her post (which Travis Roy was reading from) she specifically said that she's not going because of DJ's comments. |
RW:
...because I do not feel welcome or safe, and I disagree strongly with the actions of the JREF president, DJ Grothe” |
Seems she said both. How, Dave, are you not doing exactly what you are accusing of Travis Roy of? Neither of you get to leave stuff out.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2012 : 18:43:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Seems she said both. How, Dave, are you not doing exactly what you are accusing of Travis Roy of? Neither of you get to leave stuff out. |
I didn't. Watson saying, effectively, "I wouldn't feel safe there," is not Watson saying, "no women are safe there." Give her a little credit: DJ Grothe put a target on her back, specifically (and to a lesser extent every female blogger at FtB), and not on every woman who will show up.
Hell, Travis Roy (in part one of the transcript) even wants to ignore Watson's abuse because she's a celebrity, so by his standards, Watson not feeling safe should be assumed, even while he and others argue that TAM is completely safe. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2012 : 19:06:08 [Permalink]
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| Fine. To tell you the truth, I'm not even interested in their conversation. |
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Rebecca Watson Not Appearing at TAM
