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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2012 : 21:00:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
So on the topic, no they are clearly different concepts, with the same effect, nothing. |
I'm not sure I agree with that. BigPapaSmurf makes a good point. As a Christian, I was always taught to think of what we did and believed as special and completely different from other "pagan" religions. Not in a hateful way, necessarily, but certainly in a way that insisted other religions are mistaken. Magic is evil, as is toying with supernatural forces. Only God can grant miracles.
But is prayer really so different from casting a spell? Christians will say they are nothing alike, but when you really look at it, they are basically selling you the same thing. "Don't use their religion to get what you want, use ours." It's a sales pitch. Christians are so quick to condemn magic because it's too similar to what they are offering, just like how Scientology is quick to condemn psychiatry because their "E-readings" are nothing more than talk therapy with props. Clearly prayer (communication with the divine) had a long history of ritual associated with it throughout ancient times. The original Jews made sacrifices to appease their regional god, to ensure their requests for plentiful harvests and victories in battle were heard. The Christian mass is highly ritualized, with specific incantations to be recited, substances to be ingested, materials to be anointed, and purifications to be received. The Catholics believe that the Eucharist literally becomes the body and blood of Christ. What is that if not a magic spell?
Fair enough, and I thought about that. But there's a difference. If I want to pray to ask for some help in a difficult personal struggle, I would perhaps kneel or bow my head (or both) and maybe recite some quote from the Bible. But I'd probably do the same thing if I were to pray about the health of my grandmother, or to ask for rain during a drought, or whatever. Moreover, what I do when I pray may not be what my mother does, or what the guy down the street does.
And finally, at least in a modern Christian setting, prayer often includes comments that are along the lines of "do as You see fit, Lord, to help me." And while there's an implicit "(and I hope what You see fit is exactly what I'm asking for)" in that, there is still that sentiment. |
I know a lot of modern churches try to teach a more nuanced view of prayer, but that's only because a lot of Western believers have become less literal in their thinking. Less willing to actually believe in magic, so that aspect gets downplayed more now. But they'll still sell it that way when they can. Look at the millions who've flocked to Holy sites like Fatima, where prayers work especially good. Look at the huge trade in religious iconography and talismans. Look at arenas of people listening to teachings of the Prosperity Gospel. "Ask in the Lord in the correct way and you shall receive his blessings." And what does humility prove? Demonstrating humility to powers greater than yourself just help the magic spells work more effectively.
| Conversely, when I think of someone trying to cast a spell, I imagine that each spell has its own particular set of rituals (e.g. one spell requires some concoction of ingredients must be burned, a very specific set of words must be said a certain number of times, it must be done at a certain time of day, or in a specific spot, etc., etc., while another spell wants you to boil a different concoction of ingredients and recite a different phrase, etc., etc.). And those rituals are the same whether its you casting the spell, or your mother, or the guy down the street. Moreover, a spell is usually cast for a very specific thing with a very specific expected result. I can't imagine a witch (be it a MacBeth-style witch of the Middle Ages or some modern "white" witch) casting a spell and expecting whatever result "the fates" deem best. |
But spellcasters certainly understand that spells don't always work. Realizing that god may not always grant their requests is just Christians' way of explaining away their own failure rate.
Cune, I see how there are some differences, but I see many more similarities. Any of us who were raised religious were to some degree indoctrinated. It's always tough to see the religious beliefs we were raised with the same way a neutral observer might.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/19/2012 21:16:28 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 21:49:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I know a lot of modern churches try to teach a more nuanced view of prayer, but that's only because a lot of Western believers have become less literal in their thinking. Less willing to actually believe in magic, so that aspect gets downplayed more now. But they'll still sell it that way when they can. |
Christians aren't united in their views of such things I suppose and so I can't speak for all of them, but as a child I was taught I shouldn't pray for personal gain at all, but rather should pray for the alleviation of serious problems of others (people who are starving, suffering from diseases, in danger from war, and the like). Nearest to personal gain, if it can be called that, would be to pray for the strength to deal with what is to come, but not actually pray for outcomes.
I feel as though this is actually a long-running theme among a decent segment of Christians, and not really something that came about when people stopped believing in magic.
Edit: I'll certainly concede that maybe it became more influential when Westerners stopped believing in magic, but I don't think it was new idea by any means. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 07/19/2012 21:51:27 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2012 : 17:27:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Christians aren't united in their views of such things I suppose and so I can't speak for all of them, but as a child I was taught I shouldn't pray for personal gain at all, but rather should pray for the alleviation of serious problems of others (people who are starving, suffering from diseases, in danger from war, and the like). Nearest to personal gain, if it can be called that, would be to pray for the strength to deal with what is to come, but not actually pray for outcomes. |
Why is personal gain germane? If I cast a protective spell over my mother to shield her from harm and hardship, is it no longer a spell?
Edit: I'll certainly concede that maybe it became more influential when Westerners stopped believing in magic, but I don't think it was new idea by any means.
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And I'll certainly concede that I probably overstated my case. Certainly the ideas about and behind prayer are layered with nuance. All I'm really saying is that prayers, definitely early on but arguably up to the present day, functioned as a kind of spell, and furthermore that explanations of spell casting almost certainly would have achieved a similar depth of nuance if it too had benefited from 3000 years of apologetics.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/21/2012 17:28:19 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2012 : 18:56:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Christians aren't united in their views of such things I suppose and so I can't speak for all of them, but as a child I was taught I shouldn't pray for personal gain at all, but rather should pray for the alleviation of serious problems of others (people who are starving, suffering from diseases, in danger from war, and the like). Nearest to personal gain, if it can be called that, would be to pray for the strength to deal with what is to come, but not actually pray for outcomes. |
Why is personal gain germane? If I cast a protective spell over my mother to shield her from harm and hardship, is it no longer a spell? |
Ah, I didn't quote enough of your post, at first I meant to address this:
| Look at arenas of people listening to teachings of the Prosperity Gospel. "Ask in the Lord in the correct way and you shall receive his blessings." And what does humility prove? Demonstrating humility to powers greater than yourself just help the magic spells work more effectively. |
It was never presented to me that it was ever okay to pray for personal gain, and that feigning humility to get what you want isn't really acceptable. It's germane because it reduces the scope of things you can ask for in a prayer (personal gain, harm to others), which I suppose we'd consider legitimate spell territory (whatever the hell that means, haha).
I'm just afraid we're looking the concept strictly from a pop religion (meaning pretty shallow) perspective, which has all sorts of views that are easy picking for skeptics, but doesn't really penetrate the beliefs of thoughtful Christians. Sort of like making fun of YECs: in the end, it's sort of a waste of time because they've decided they aren't going to think.
| And I'll certainly concede that I probably overstated my case. Certainly the ideas about and behind prayer are layered with nuance. All I'm really saying is that prayers, definitely early on but arguably up to the present day, functioned as a kind of spell, and furthermore that explanations of spell casting almost certainly would have achieved a similar depth of nuance if it too had benefited from 3000 years of apologetics. |
I don't know much about the origins of the idea, but I think it goes back at least to Augustine of Hippo, which is pretty early on.
My view really is that this view of prayer as a spell has been there from the start, from a very persistent and visible strain of non-intellectual Christianity (which is very active now), but the sorts of things most legitimate theologians have probably not believed in a very long time. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2012 : 10:00:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
And I'll certainly concede that I probably overstated my case. Certainly the ideas about and behind prayer are layered with nuance. All I'm really saying is that prayers, definitely early on but arguably up to the present day, functioned as a kind of spell, and furthermore that explanations of spell casting almost certainly would have achieved a similar depth of nuance if it too had benefited from 3000 years of apologetics. |
For me, on some level, they are spells. So I agree. I guess me main point was that (again, for me) a spell is more an appeal to innate magics that has some reliability in how you make that appeal, whereas praying is making an appeal to a very specific god the results of which are subject to the whims of said god.
If I cast a spell-- and I properly performed the ritual-- I'm expecting it to work as specified in my spell books. If I pray, it's up to the god in question what to do about it.
Perhaps here, the nuance is more of a square/rectangle thing. All squares are rectangles, rectangles aren't squares.... |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2012 : 11:39:46 [Permalink]
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I would be really interested in some input from Valiant Dancer. He should have some insight on this.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 07:52:44 [Permalink]
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Sorry, been a bit busy. With Mercury in retrograde, I have been pissing people off. (OK, I'm choosing to blame Mercury when it's actually how I am dealing with stress.)
Also, I am gearing up for a 9 day stay in the woods. I'm giving a workshop on Tarot and am onsite Registration Chairman for a religious retreat.
Anyhoo.
Spellwork/prayer is a bit different in Wicca. The spellwork identifies what the ultimate goal is of the work. The part of your day that you devote to it is introspection to see what part of yourself needs to change to get it. The dieties "job" is to help you focus on the task at hand. It is up to the adherent to work towards changing themselves for the better and keeping their eyes open for opportunities.
It is also why the goals are inherently "fuzzy". When doing work for attracting a mate, one focuses on the traits they want in a mate. Not on a specific person. The logic there is that you might walk past a thousand diamonds to persue a piece of iron pyrite. You ask for a challenging and fullfilling job instead of a specific position with a specific firm. Same reasoning.
It is also why casting spells on people is considered evil. Because the work required to get to a specific person or job could change you for the worst. Someone who is willing to sacrifice good qualities for the qualities the person or job requires which are not good.
Protective or healing spells are prayers that also increase the adherent's focus on the problems at hand. While somewhat of a placebo effect (you have to tell the person you are praying for them), it makes both of the people feel a bit better.
Of course, there are limits here as well. You cannot do work for others without permission except for close family. Even with close family, if the person who is the recipient of the work would object to the work being done on their behalf then work should not be done for them. Part of the religion is respect for other's views.
For instance, if I asked Kil if I could pray or do a spell for him, Kil may think that it is inappropriate and say "no". I would be bound by that statement ethically and not do that work.
When dealing with healing work, a result is not specified. Rather energy of a specific type is raised and then sent to the other person to do with what they will. If they use it to get well, then they will get well. If they use it to help them pass beyond the veil, then that is their will. (Yes, it is covering all outcomes in an unverifiable methodology.)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 08:00:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by AnthroGeek
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
| Originally posted by BigPapaSmurfI totally get what you are saying and I agree, I was just nitpicking your D&D. Those things would be considered components in D&D, it helps if you think of Priest spells instead of Wizard. |
Ah yes. Priest spells. I never played a cleric when I was growing up and D&D-ing, and sadly that's in part to my Christian up-bringing making me wary about the whole "other gods" thing (this was the 80's, when there was a lot of "D&D is Satanic" crap flying around). Also, if you can't cast Meteor Swarm, what good are you?
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Flame Strike? True Resurrection? Geas/Quest? Holy Word? Hell if you are a druid you got Creeping Doom! Never underestimate the power of a cleric in the party.
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How useful is a Wizard when the party takes damage?
While fireball cures the disease, it cures it like pigs get curred. (Mmmmmmm. Bacon.) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Prayer
