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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2013 :  08:34:53  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fighting back against the haters within the skeptic/atheist communities with art and charity, and with a petition.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2013 :  11:54:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would have preferred if the creators of the petition had left off the A+ logo. I wouldn't have included any logo that identifies the signatories as any particular subset of the larger movement. Otherwise, I'm cool with everything that Amy is doing and the sentiment behind the petition.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2013 :  15:52:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't like Amy's Venn diagram. It says that I'm an asshole during the weekends and then I'm working evening-shifts.
It's supposed to be funny, but it's not making me laugh. On the other hand, she seems to be online a lot more than me, so she's a bigger asshole than I am... I find that irony funny enough.


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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2013 :  00:15:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, FFS.

The petition is what A+ is about. Being inclusive of the larger movement is to be inclusive of the assholes, the just-don't-cares and the leave-me-out-of-the-drama folks, none of whom would have signed the petition anyway. Consider the logo to be a sort of Shibboleth, then, enabling those who wouldn't sign to not sign faster, so some fraction of them can get back to publishing their hate.

And if one only has free time on the weekends, one is not an asshole. Amy's Venn diagram was targeting those people who have so much free time that they send her and others abuse every fucking day, sometimes multiple times. There's a guy who goes by the Twitter handle "ElevatorGATE" who appears to spend every hour (not just normal waking hours, but every single hour) posting abusive crap about women in the movement(s). That's the sort of person Amy was mocking.

Finding little bitty flaws to gripe about is actually part of the problem, guys. Do you not see how your complaints might be discouraging to some small fraction of the movement still reasonably undecided? Paint the petition and/or the charity in a negative light in your first sentence, and there will be fewer people reading on and/or clicking through. If you're cool with everything otherwise, and none of the negative stuff you've seemingly personalized without merit is an obstacle for you, why not help these efforts shine in the best light possible?

Don't pee in the Cheerios. It may not be the most awesome cereal ever, but that's no reason to make it worse.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  06:35:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is this a petition to see which browser I should upgrade to? I'm confused by the link!

I guess I'm not allowed to object to anything A- is doing so I'll just say they feel like the sort of group who would baptise me after death if they were Mormons.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  07:28:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I guess I'm not allowed to object to anything A- is doing so I'll just say they feel like the sort of group who would baptise me after death if they were Mormons.

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  09:35:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I guess I'm not allowed to object to anything A- is doing so I'll just say they feel like the sort of group who would baptise me after death if they were Mormons.
You feel that, do you? You aren't alone. A whole lot of "skeptics" seem to substitute feelings for thinking on this particular issue. It's extremely disappointing to see.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/14/2013 09:37:16
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  10:29:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having thought about it some, I finally decided to sign the petition. The sentiment of being inclusive appeals to me even though some paragraphs could have used some re-wording to make me completely happy.

But as it is... it's good enough.

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  12:05:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I guess I'm not allowed to object to anything A- is doing so I'll just say they feel like the sort of group who would baptise me after death if they were Mormons.

I think he's conveying his opinion that the A+ label is an oxymoron. Where it is less inclusive than A, alone. Same as Kil's thinking, so he calling it A- and suggesting some associates an extremist sub group of Atheists. That's how I read it.

I see Baptism for the living as the first act in a lifelong process of brain washing. I know of no religious ritual that recruits dead souls into Christiandumb besides the Mormons. The Mormons have a lock on that market as far as I know. It just as stupid as their their other invented myth and cash generator "Magical Masonic Underwear" which carry promises of supernatural protection from whatever is out to harm you. For believers to works 100% but the foolish people wearing them must have "Blind Faith" for them to work. That means if you try to "look at" their effectiveness they magically won't work. Just like prayer. As demonstrated here. With blind faith all you have to do is keep your eyes closed. Along with your mouth, ears, and mind.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1451 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  13:51:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

I don't like Amy's Venn diagram. It says that I'm an asshole during the weekends and then I'm working evening-shifts.
It's supposed to be funny, but it's not making me laugh. On the other hand, she seems to be online a lot more than me, so she's a bigger asshole than I am... I find that irony funny enough.

Yeah, that's a dumb Venn, IMHO.

Too much free time + atheist due to indoctrination = good

Too much free time + skeptic yet hasn't yet followed through and honestly pursued the truth to reach the tentative conclusion that there are no gods = good
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  17:33:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

...even though some paragraphs could have used some re-wording to make me completely happy.
For example?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2013 :  17:34:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I guess I'm not allowed to object to anything A- is doing...
You guess wrongly, but maybe that's a subject for another thread.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2013 :  08:54:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

...even though some paragraphs could have used some re-wording to make me completely happy.
For example?

The one about the preponderance of white men and how the Movement is going to be left behind unless "we" step back and let it change. I read it a little hasty, and got weird associations to "angry white men", and as if I was part of the problem. Having re-read the passage a few times, I'm thinking there may be a point to it. Not that I'm a part of the problem, but the fact that there is a majority of men in the movement. I object that this is necessarily a problem.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2013 :  10:22:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Not that I'm a part of the problem, but the fact that there is a majority of men in the movement. I object that this is necessarily a problem.
Old white men are slowly losing their strangehold on the reins of power, world-wide (for a small example, the new U.S. Congress has more women in it than ever before), and so more and more often, then problems of non-old, non-white, non-men are being seriously addressed at levels higher than private charities. If the skeptic/atheist communities fail to also seriously engage the concerns of non-old, non-white, non-men, we will be left behind by them as irrelevant to their lives.

And we won't be able to successfully engage unless we ensure that our communities make it crystal clear that those amongst us who hate on the non-old, non-white, non-men are not the norm, that they don't respresent the communities in leadership roles, and that their hate is not welcome at our gatherings (face-to-face or online). That will make our spaces "safe" for everyone's participation (everyone, that is, except the haters).

We have a choice to make: we can either be understanding of and welcoming towards women, people of color, gays, the disabled, etc. (subsets of humanity which, when combined, total much more than 50%) and possibly gain them as allies if not as fellow atheists/skeptics, or we can keep the status quo and swell our ranks only with haters and those who don't mind the haters.

We've already got examples of non-old, non-white, non-male people who have "discovered" the atheist/skeptic movements and naively thought, "these people are intelligent and wise, and so will be above all the institutional bigotry that I encounter every day," only to have their ideals smashed to bits by a bigoted comment from a prominent member of our community who not only doesn't apologize but instead doubles-down on why it was an okay thing to say, followed by hundreds of online commenters defending the stupidity as legit. The new person thinks, "okay, that was bad, but maybe it's just a one-time thing," and then it happens again. And again. And again. And then xe witnesses one of the months-long campaigns of hate. And then the new person decides that our community is actually worse than what xe encounters every day on the bus or at work or school (because the people at those places aren't proud about being bigoted assholes, they're just muddling along within a system that makes it easy to not think about avoiding it), and decides "fuck that shit" and refuses to participate any longer.

Yes, they'll still be "counted" as an atheist by polls and censuses, but they won't advocate for it, they won't go to conferences about it, they won't even recommend that anyone go to any of the major skeptic/atheist web sites. They've decided they want nothing to do with a community that appears to be rife with assholes in leadership positions and also willing to tolerate the intolerable (whether it is or not).

That's the sort of thing the petition is trying to help end. It's not the mere fact that the movements are now filled with old white men, it's that they include some old white men who act as if being an old white man entitles them to be jerks to the non-old, non-white, non-men along with a lot more who defend that attitude and even more who turn a blind eye to the jerkiness instead of loudly opposing and marginalizing it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2013 :  12:22:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then we are in agreement: The bigots and asshats should be told to shut-the-fuck-up unless they have something productive to say.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2013 :  15:23:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Then we are in agreement: The bigots and asshats should be told to shut-the-fuck-up unless they have something productive to say.
Yes. Like Michael Shermer who, while now tripling-down on a sexist remark he made a while back, has equated being criticized on the Internet with being hauled off to the concentration camps. Poor, persecuted Shermer. Having his probably-unconscious bias exposed in a magazine article and being criticized in a blog post for his public reaction to that exposure is just exactly like being dragged from his home, tortured and gassed. My heart bleeds.

Michael Shermer needed, a while back, to do nothing more than clarify his original meaning and perhaps apologize, but now he really, really needs to shut the fuck up.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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