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Grockel
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  15:15:06  Show Profile Send Grockel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Adults having sex with children is considered one of the most heinous crimes. The rape of a child causes significant trauma and physical harm. However consensual sex with children, which may not even be penetrative, is a grey area. In order for something to be justifiably criminalized it must be harmful, for this reason homosexuality has been decriminalized. There are several factors which need to be discussed when deciding if pedophilia is intrinsically harmful.

Age of consent

Ages of consent are arbitrary and differ across nations. In Italy a 40 year old can legally have sex with a 14 year old, whilst in California a 20 year old having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend is committing statutory rape. The problem with an age of consent is that it doesn't allow for exceptions: young people are criminalized for having consensual sex whilst vulnerable teenagers over the age of consent are unprotected. There is no scientific evidence suggesting that sex before a certain age is intrinsically harmful.

Taboo and morality

How society views sex is important, sexual ethics are subjective and ever changing. Sexual taboos exist in every culture and cause individuals to feel shame, guilt and other powerful emotions. These taboos are often unjustified, such as the taboo against interracial sex. Whilst sex with children is taboo in western cultures it has been, and still is, acceptable in some parts of the world. Recently the west has imposed it's sexual ethics on the Pitcairn Islands where children routinely have sex with adults. One woman told reporters:

"I was 13 ... I felt like a big lady. I wanted it"

What right do we have to impose our laws on these people? In the West parents can feed their kids junk food and raise them with religious beliefs, why should they not also be allowed to decide on how the child develops sexually?

APA (American Psychiatric Association)

The APA conducted 59 studies on college students. They discovered that two-thrids of sexually abused men and more than one-quarter of sexually abused women "reported neutral or positive reactions." They concluded that the negative effects of child sexual abuse "were neither pervasive nor typically intense".

In the Psychological Bulletin (1998, vol. 124) the American Psychiatric Association stated:

"Childhood sexual abuse is on average, only slightly associated with psychological harm--and that the harm may not be due to the sexual experience, but to the negative family factors in the children's backgrounds. When the sexual contact is not coerced...it may not be harmful at all." The APA also states that abuse "may only constitute a violation of social norms.".

Prior to the late 20th century much of the research on pedophilia was based on data from clinical populations, i.e., people who sought help for existing emotional/psychological problems. The APA concludes that "the inevitable result was that the pervasiveness of harm was greatly exaggerated, since only those who perceived themselves as needing treatment were included."

What are your opinions of adults having consensual sex with children and teenagers?

Edited by - Grockel on 02/27/2013 15:25:02

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  16:17:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you want pedophilia to be legal?



"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  16:39:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Grockel

What are your opinions of adults having consensual sex with children and teenagers?
Your opening was only off by one word. "Adults having sex with children is considered one of the most heinous crimes. The rape of a child causes significant trauma and physical harm." I would think that acknowledging the heinous nature of the crime should be enough to make asking this question unnecessary.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  17:41:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

Originally posted by Grockel

What are your opinions of adults having consensual sex with children and teenagers?
Your opening was only off by one word. "Adults having sex with children is considered one of the most heinous crimes. The rape of a child causes significant trauma and physical harm." I would think that acknowledging the heinous nature of the crime should be enough to make asking this question unnecessary.


What he said...plus there is no biological or psychological way that "informed consent" can be given by a child.

To me...the age of consent should be the voting age.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  17:59:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Grockel

Age of consent

Ages of consent are arbitrary and differ across nations. In Italy a 40 year old can legally have sex with a 14 year old, whilst in California a 20 year old having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend is committing statutory rape. The problem with an age of consent is that it doesn't allow for exceptions: young people are criminalized for having consensual sex whilst vulnerable teenagers over the age of consent are unprotected. There is no scientific evidence suggesting that sex before a certain age is intrinsically harmful.
Who gets to judge? A vulnerable child might mistakenly insist that their consent was well-informed.
Taboo and morality

How society views sex is important, sexual ethics are subjective and ever changing. Sexual taboos exist in every culture and cause individuals to feel shame, guilt and other powerful emotions. These taboos are often unjustified, such as the taboo against interracial sex. Whilst sex with children is taboo in western cultures it has been, and still is, acceptable in some parts of the world. Recently the west has imposed it's sexual ethics on the Pitcairn Islands where children routinely have sex with adults. One woman told reporters:

"I was 13 ... I felt like a big lady. I wanted it"
Anyone having sex in order to feel like "a big lady" is doing it for the wrong reason.
What right do we have to impose our laws on these people?
Ask the British.
In the West parents can feed their kids junk food and raise them with religious beliefs, why should they not also be allowed to decide on how the child develops sexually?
Cultural relativism is self-defeating, since you now must agree that you have no right to try to change Western attitudes about pedophilia.
APA (American Psychiatric Association)

The APA conducted 59 studies on college students. They discovered that two-thrids of sexually abused men and more than one-quarter of sexually abused women "reported neutral or positive reactions." They concluded that the negative effects of child sexual abuse "were neither pervasive nor typically intense".

In the Psychological Bulletin (1998, vol. 124) the American Psychiatric Association stated:

"Childhood sexual abuse is on average, only slightly associated with psychological harm--and that the harm may not be due to the sexual experience, but to the negative family factors in the children's backgrounds. When the sexual contact is not coerced...it may not be harmful at all." The APA also states that abuse "may only constitute a violation of social norms.".

Prior to the late 20th century much of the research on pedophilia was based on data from clinical populations, i.e., people who sought help for existing emotional/psychological problems. The APA concludes that "the inevitable result was that the pervasiveness of harm was greatly exaggerated, since only those who perceived themselves as needing treatment were included."
It'd be better if you cite the original study and not second-hand accounts. Of course the effects are going to be mixed when "child sexual assault" includes everything from mere exhibitionism to rape. But, contrary to the impression you're trying to leave with us:
Three of every eight male experiences, but only one of every 10 female experiences, were reported to have been positive at the time.
Acting as if "neutral or positive" is the same as "positive" is disingenuous at best, and a lie at worst.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  18:06:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given the similarities in posting styles and ISPs, I suspect that Grockel and MisterMaggot are the same person.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  18:54:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grockel:
"I was 13 ... I felt like a big lady. I wanted it"

Well gee. Why don't we allow children to make all of their own decisions? We'll just ignore the fact that the prefrontal cortex of their brains aren't even close to being fully developed yet. The problem with this kind of thinking is that it's suggesting that children are just small versions of adults. They aren't. Should we also buy them booze and let them drink when they want to because it makes them feel "big?"

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  19:43:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Given the similarities in posting styles and ISPs, I suspect that Grockel and MisterMaggot are the same person.
Wouldn't surprise me. They both never say much after their OP's. Which is pretty pointless if they're actually interested in the topics they start, which I figured they're not.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  22:54:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hay Grockel, I found a girl friend for you. She's into lipstick.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Grockel
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2013 :  04:24:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Grockel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do children need to give consent? Does a child give consent to be circumcised or sent to bed?

Children are not asexual. Toddlers have been known to masturbate, even doing so in public as they are unaware of any taboo. According to such researchers as De Jong, 1989, by the age of two or three years children begin to explore their own genitals via masturbation, and to explore the genitals of other children by means of such games as "playing doctor," playing "mommy and daddy," and by means of childish attempts at sexual intercourse. Dr Saltzman says: "Ordinary sexual experimentation between children within the same family is definitely not incest."

Why can't an adult be a part of this sexual experimentation? Even new born babies enjoy gentle genital stimulation.

Okay. I messed up. I'm hoping I put this back the way it was. But it seems I hit the edit rather than the quote icon, and answered this post. You can see my reply below. I'm very sorry if I missed something or substantially changed this post. Based on Val's quote of the whole post, I think I got it right.

My bad!

Kil

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2013 :  06:18:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Grockel

Originally posted by the_ignored
[br there is no biological or psychological way that "informed consent" can be given by a child.


Do children need to give consent? Does a child give consent to be circumcised or sent to bed?
Stunning. Your comparing being forced to have sex with an adult with being sent to bed by an adult. One that has long ago beeen determine to be a heinous crime the other a reasonable part of parenting.

Originally posted by Grockel

Why can't an adult be a part of this sexual experimentation? Even new born babies enjoy gentle genital stimulation.
It is no longer innocent self exploration. When an adult is involved it becomes exploitation, abuse, and due to the size differences physically tramatic. We do not need to consider what constitutes gentle stimulatation or consent. We have clear/necessary laws that prohibit all adult/child sex. Your argument in favor of change to these laws is untenable and rightly so, for many reasons, even ones that you have mentioned.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2013 :  06:47:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Grockel

Originally posted by the_ignored
[br there is no biological or psychological way that "informed consent" can be given by a child.


Do children need to give consent? Does a child give consent to be circumcised or sent to bed?

Children are not asexual. Toddlers have been known to masturbate, even doing so in public as they are unaware of any taboo. According to such researchers as De Jong, 1989, by the age of two or three years children begin to explore their own genitals via masturbation, and to explore the genitals of other children by means of such games as "playing doctor," playing "mommy and daddy," and by means of childish attempts at sexual intercourse. Dr Saltzman says: "Ordinary sexual experimentation between children within the same family is definitely not incest."

Why can't an adult be a part of this sexual experimentation? Even new born babies enjoy gentle genital stimulation.


As has been proven by your APA studies, sexual activity by minors has a very significant mental impact to that minor. As Kil points out, the brain of that child is still developing. It is for these reasons that minors cannot give consent. They also cannot enter into contracts. Ditto for non-human animals.

Children are under the control of their parents. However, there are limits to actions that the law has placed on parents and punishments for parents who do not live up to the law or reasonable care. Guardianship is not the same as ownership.

So, these questions make me wonder.

When is your court case for your opiate fueled sexcapades with your minor girlfriend?

If it were my daughter, you wouldn't have to worry about court. You'd be busy decomposing.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2013 :  08:57:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Grockel

However consensual sex with children, which may not even be penetrative, is a grey area.
No it's not.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2013 :  09:34:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grockel:
Do children need to give consent?

As I said, the prefrontal cortex of their brains are not fully developed. So they can't give informed consent." And without that, it's rape. Do women need to give consent before having sex? A lack of consent is rape.
Grockel:
Does a child give consent to be circumcised or sent to bed?

Parents are obliged to make decisions for their children based on what they believe is in the best interest of their children. The reason for that is that a child's brain is not fully developed yet. And there are legal limitations on what decisions parents can make too. Sexually abusing them would be one of those limitations. Allowing others to abuse their children is also a crime. Children are not objects. They are going through stages of mental and physical development (sometimes the same thing) that will hopefully make them responsible adults. But again, they are not adults.
Grockel:
Children are not asexual. Toddlers have been known to masturbate, even doing so in public as they are unaware of any taboo. According to such researchers as De Jong, 1989, by the age of two or three years children begin to explore their own genitals via masturbation, and to explore the genitals of other children by means of such games as "playing doctor," playing "mommy and daddy," and by means of childish attempts at sexual intercourse. Dr Saltzman says: "Ordinary sexual experimentation between children within the same family is definitely not incest."

And this is not relevant to any discussion about whether pedophilia is okay. Itís a given that children develop sexually too. We are talking about their ability to make informed decisions with brains that aren't completely wired yet.
Grockel:
Why can't an adult be a part of this sexual experimentation? Even new born babies enjoy gentle genital stimulation.

SoÖ Adults need to help them along by becoming sexually active with them? Why would you think that? A pretty good reason for not being a part of the experimentation is it might actually impair normal sexual development. Self discovery is part of the development process.

Acting on pedophilia is about the gratification of adults, not children. And like rape, it's usually more about power than it is about sex. In fact, it is rape.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2013 :  10:58:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Grockel
Grockel:
Does a child give consent to be circumcised or sent to bed?
You're comparing genital mutilation and being tucked in at night?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2013 :  11:17:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mab:
You're comparing genital mutilation and being tucked in at night?

There seems to be a judgment here. The pros and cons of circumsision is a debatable subject too.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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