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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  04:02:54  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

An attempted measurement of racial tolerance by country.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  05:10:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's fascinating. I notice that by these measures, most North-West European countries, aside from France, are fairly racially tolerant, as are the ANZAC nations, South Africa (good progress there!) and most of the nations in the Americas. I think the question about who you'd object to as a neighbor is an ideal one for gauging tolerance. India (with its large Muslim minority), along with Indonesia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and a large number of other Islamic-majority nations are comparatively intolerant. Makes one wonder at the much-vaunted racial tolerance of Islam.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  09:29:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I noticed the article mentioned that Indians sometimes consider tribal alliances a part of race, and I wonder if it's similar in the Islamic countries where tribal or very extended familial ties are so important. Pakistan interestingly didn't follow suit.

We probably need to think of who they're going to think of when they're asked about "other races" in general, and some questions were raised about Western folks being less likely to admit their racism, but I doubt it would be a very significant bias.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/10/2013 09:37:44
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  11:03:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kind of hard to judge that poll... Im sure if "anybody but the Japanese" was an option, China/Korea would be 50%+

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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sailingsoul
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2830 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  18:01:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seems like a bit extreme of a conclusion or label for France to me. I would think if there are other countries that are identified more racist than France, in the same study, then can France be called "totally racist". In my mind "totally racist" should at most be reserved for those more extreme than France, if at all.

If France can be justifiably be called totally racist then what does one call those shown to be more so?

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  19:11:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The update throws a bunch of cold water on the original piece.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  19:56:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Seems like a bit extreme of a conclusion or label for France to me. I would think if there are other countries that are identified more racist than France, in the same study, then can France be called "totally racist". In my mind "totally racist" should at most be reserved for those more extreme than France, if at all.

If France can be justifiably be called totally racist then what does one call those shown to be more so?


But it's fun to throw stones at France!

It's just that they polled especially low versus comparable nations -- modern, Western, etc.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/10/2013 20:03:31
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  20:45:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli



But it's fun to throw stones at France!

It's just that they poll especially low versus comparable nations -- modern, Western, etc.
Putting it that way, I see your point. On both counts.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1263 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  22:31:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Kind of hard to judge that poll... Im sure if "anybody but the Japanese" was an option, China/Korea would be 50%+


Chinese and Japanese are the same race tho. Asian.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2013 :  00:36:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Race as a subset of the human species doesn't really exist as a scientific or useful concept. But the idea of race is a very big factor in human thinking. I'm finding this whole discussion very enlightening. My original reaction of thinking that the metric based on whether a person would want a person of another race to be a neighbor was "ideal" has gone down in flames. If cultures define race in so many ways, the metric becomes useless.

Essentially, race means whatever people may use to distinguish "us" from "them."

Some consider those from other tribes to be of another race, especially, but not limited to, India and Africa. Some consider cultural and religious background to define race, as with the "Jewish race." Most Chinese consider themselves to be of the Han race, though the people in most nations around them in North-East Asia look virtually indistinguishable.

The Japanese, though they are a people whose origins are mainly Korean colonists (mixed with a smaller substrate of indigenous Ainu-like people), Japanese are generally and viscerally offended at the idea that they share an origin with the despised Koreans. (Japanese archaeologists are even forbidden to dig in the ruins of the early settlements of these Korean immigrants, lest they discover more links to Korea.)

What a fascinating mess!

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/11/2013 11:42:31
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2013 :  05:15:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Kind of hard to judge that poll... Im sure if "anybody but the Japanese" was an option, China/Korea would be 50%+


Chinese and Japanese are the same race tho. Asian.


I'll let you tell them that.

Asia is a landmass, not a race. Im sure the Turks and the Koreans do not consider themselves the same race. Hell I could argue that there are three or more in China alone.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2013 :  11:07:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I'll let you tell them that.

Asia is a landmass, not a race. Im sure the Turks and the Koreans do not consider themselves the same race. Hell I could argue that there are three or more in China alone.
Han Chinese, as well a Koreans and Japanese, are nearly indistinguishable in their observable physical traits, or in other words, their phenotype. The common ancestors of all three groups are believed to have developed this phenotype during the last Ice Age while trapped for thousands of years in a harshly cold Siberian, North East Asian (or possibly a Beringian or even a North American) "refugium." Wherever the refugium was, a small group of these ancestors were cut off from genetic contact with other humans. Certain genetic traits were favored by evolution. These included an insulating distribution of subcutaneous fat in both sexes, the epicanthic fold of the eyelids, a small nose and a compact stature.

But common ancestry -- even much more recent common ancestry -- has little effect on perceptions of race. Race itself is essentially an irrational idea. Koreans, Chinese and Japanese tend to think of each of the other groups in quite a xenophobic way. I suspect that an instinct underlying xenophobia may be a universal trait. Just how it is expressed is widely variable, though.

(One of the Greek root words making up "xenophobia" is xenos. Interestingly, it not only means "alien," "stranger," and "foreigner," but also "enemy.")

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/11/2013 11:46:35
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1263 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2013 :  23:15:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner


Han Chinese, as well a Koreans and Japanese, are nearly indistinguishable in their observable physical traits, or in other words, their phenotype. The common ancestors of all three groups are believed to have developed this phenotype during the last Ice Age while trapped for thousands of years in a harshly cold Siberian, North East Asian (or possibly a Beringian or even a North American) "


But is appearance the only thing that defines race? What about cultural and linguistic differences? Chinese and Japanese may look pretty similar. But they have been separated long enough that their languages aren't even in the same family, think about that. English and Sanskrit are more similar than Chinese and Japanese. As for physical differences, obviously there are similarities, but there are also differences. Even northern and southern Chinese have differences. It's a big country.

It really depends how you define "Race". In my experience, American English generally use a purely physical definition, probably because it was popularised by the US census, I don't know but I'm guessing this is due to the fact Americans are generally a mish-mash of caucasians, Blacks of various origins, Latinos from all over central America and migrant asians from various countries. Basically it's a country where there are so many races, the definition had to expand to mean "groups of similar races".

Oxford English dictionary:

a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group:
we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then


In British English it's not unusual for people to be called "racist" for disliking the French, or the Irish. While Britain certainly does have diversity, people seem to be more specific about it, most Black people know where their family originated from for example.

edit for formatting

Edited by - On fire for Christ on 10/11/2013 23:16:41
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2013 :  00:42:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

But is appearance the only thing that defines race? What about cultural and linguistic differences? Chinese and Japanese may look pretty similar. But they have been separated long enough that their languages aren't even in the same family, think about that. English and Sanskrit are more similar than Chinese and Japanese. As for physical differences, obviously there are similarities, but there are also differences. Even northern and southern Chinese have differences. It's a big country.
Yes, as I wrote here, "Essentially, race means whatever people may use to distinguish 'us' from 'them.'" It's one of the most compelling, even if mythical, memes used in xenophobia. The Han Chinese do have somewhat differing phenotypes from north to south, and those differences seem to be consistent with a slight post-Ice Age evolution to adapt to local climate. The slimmer Han are in the south, the stockier types are in the north.
It really depends how you define "Race". In my experience, American English generally use a purely physical definition, probably because it was popularised by the US census, I don't know but I'm guessing this is due to the fact Americans are generally a mish-mash of caucasians, Blacks of various origins, Latinos from all over central America and migrant asians from various countries. Basically it's a country where there are so many races, the definition had to expand to mean "groups of similar races".
That's very much what I'm trying to express. "Race," particularly since it is a subjective idea, has no consistent definition, and can be used in any way imaginable in the service of xenophobia.
Oxford English dictionary:

a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group:
we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then


In British English it's not unusual for people to be called "racist" for disliking the French, or the Irish. While Britain certainly does have diversity, people seem to be more specific about it, most Black people know where their family originated from for example.
There you go. That kind of dislike would best be called an aspect of nationalism, or better yet, xenophobia, not racism.

(Edited to add: I meant the national origin part, not the phenotypes. Blacks in both the US and the UK have the additional burden of a distinct phenotype. "Black bastard" and "nigger" are epithets that can be shouted from a considerable distance without the drunken bigot knowing if his target is from Jamaica or from Cameroon.)

The Oxford English Dictionary highlights the point that the definition of "race" covers such a wide variety of features that it may as well be meaningless and useless unless defined by the speaker, writer, or the context of its useage. (And "[W]e Scots were a bloodthirsty race then" again highlights the use of "race" as primarily a word used for distinguishing "us" from "them.")

I'll add the observation that I strongly feel that xenophobia, whatever use it may have had in prehistoric or ancient societies, is an almost unalloyed curse in our increasingly multi-"racial," multicultural, and economically unitary global society.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/12/2013 00:54:47
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  04:49:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote

[quote]
Yes, as I wrote here, "Essentially, race means whatever people may use to distinguish 'us' from 'them.'" It's one of the most compelling, even if mythical, memes used in xenophobia. The Han Chinese do have somewhat differing phenotypes from north to south, and those differences seem to be consistent with a slight post-Ice Age evolution to adapt to local climate. The slimmer Han are in the south, the stockier types are in the north.[quote}

I think diet is a more compelling factor than climate in this case, there are three distinct diets in eastern China, moving from primarily sea food protein in the Hong Kong region up to primarily fiber-rich grains and vegetables near Korea.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  06:08:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf


[quote]
Yes, as I wrote here, "Essentially, race means whatever people may use to distinguish 'us' from 'them.'" It's one of the most compelling, even if mythical, memes used in xenophobia. The Han Chinese do have somewhat differing phenotypes from north to south, and those differences seem to be consistent with a slight post-Ice Age evolution to adapt to local climate. The slimmer Han are in the south, the stockier types are in the north.[quote}

I think diet is a more compelling factor than climate in this case, there are three distinct diets in eastern China, moving from primarily sea food protein in the Hong Kong region up to primarily fiber-rich grains and vegetables near Korea.
That's a pretty lucid point.

I grew up in San Diego with Japanese-American neighbors surrounding me. The Horie and the Itos families were doubly related by marriage. They had begun as poor peasants in Kyushu, had migrated to Hawaii as plantation workers, then resettled in San Diego and bought their own land to start a lucrative truck farming business.

I recall seeing three generations of them standing side by side once. Those who grew up in Japan were the shortest, their kids were intermediate, and the youngest were several inches taller than their grandparents. I thought then and think now that the differences in their statures were mainly due to increasingly better nutrition, especially dairy products.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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