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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  18:19:34  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/politics/carson-obamacare-is-worst-thing--since-slavery/2013/10/11/e40289d6-328d-11e3-89ae-16e186e117d8_video.html

Thanks for your perspective Dr. Carson! In fact, it IS slavery in a way. Can we stop giving this guy airtime now please?

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus

Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/14/2013 21:56:56

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  23:42:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Amazing.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  06:25:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/politics/carson-obamacare-is-worst-thing--since-slavery/2013/10/11/e40289d6-328d-11e3-89ae-16e186e117d8_video.html

Thanks for your perspective Dr. Carson! In fact, it IS slavery in a way. Can we stop giving this guy airtime now please?
No hyperboles to see here, people. Now move along.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  06:51:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Machi4velli

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/politics/carson-obamacare-is-worst-thing--since-slavery/2013/10/11/e40289d6-328d-11e3-89ae-16e186e117d8_video.html

Thanks for your perspective Dr. Carson! In fact, it IS slavery in a way. Can we stop giving this guy airtime now please?
No hyperboles to see here, people. Now move along.


I guess that makes it worse than WWI,WWII, The Holocaust, The Spanish Flu Pandemic, China Floodings, Fox News and the Tsunami's...

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  09:18:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Appears that the Lenin quote has never been confirmed either. Hard to believe that Ben would have missed that during preparation.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  09:31:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Courtesy of the benevolent folks at Wellpoint, his off-shore bank account just grew by a factor of a shitload.


Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  05:51:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/politics/carson-obamacare-is-worst-thing--since-slavery/2013/10/11/e40289d6-328d-11e3-89ae-16e186e117d8_video.html

Thanks for your perspective Dr. Carson! In fact, it IS slavery in a way. Can we stop giving this guy airtime now please?


Barry's former presser ain't to impressed with it. Let's hope we see some improvements but I ain't holding my breath.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyK-PbrM4Sc



This is an instant classic and I predict months and months of these stories ahead. Middle class Obama supporters learning socialism 101 the hard way.


"Of course, I want people to have health care, Vinson said. I just didn't realize I would be the one who was going to pay for it personally.

Theres going to be a number of people surprised by their bills, said Jonathan Wu, a co-founder of ValuePenguin, a consumer finance website. The upper-middle class are the people who are essentially being asked to foot the bill, and thats true across the country.

I really dont like the Republican tactics, but at least now I can understand why they are so pissed about this. When you take $10,000 out of my familys pocket each year, thats otherwise disposable income or retirement savings that will not be going into our local economy.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/i-want-people-to-have-health-care-i-just-didnt-realize-i-would-be-the-one-who-was-going-to-pay-for-it/

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  07:36:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Health care providers announced more layoffs than any other industry last month 8,128 largely because of reductions by hospitals, according to outplacement firm Challenger Gray and Christmas. So far this year, the health care sector has announced 41,085 layoffs, the third-most behind financial and industrial companies.

There are myriad reasons for the cuts, which are affecting administrative staff as well as nurses and doctors:
Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance companies are all reducing reimbursement to hospitals.

The health care law has further reduced the Medicare payments to hospitals that provide lower-quality service or have high readmission rates
."


So we have a quickly shrinking supply on the healthcare side while next year we are going to see a rapid rise on the demand side when allegedly 30 million Americans will now have heath insurance who the year before did not. Sounds like we are going to be stuck trying to get 20lbs of BS into a 5lbs bag.





"The new health care law was supposed to ease the burden on hospitals by expanding Medicaid coverage to more low-income Americans, who often use hospital services in emergencies, then don't pay their bills."


So it sounds like what obamacare will accomplish is taking the costs away from the hospitals, who would treat these 30 million Americans without insurance and then had to eat those costs, and is now shifting those costs onto the backs of working class Americans and that is where the big shock is coming for all the middle class obama supporters who were somehow convinced that all of this free healthcare was going to be magically paid for by the top 1%. Trouble is is that there is nowhere near enough 1%'s to cover those costs and someone has to pay these bills. So next year middle class Joe will be funding his healthcare as well as all those 30 million who couldn't afford healthcare the year before and were using the ER as their family doctor. Welcome to socialism 101 gang.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/10/13/hospital-job-cuts/2947929/



So lets see by next year we will see major cuts in supply with major increases in demand and the working class will have to pay for this predictable train wreck.




"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  09:10:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Frontpage magazine is a right wing rag. Get back to me Bill when you have a more unbiased source to report from. And even the article they link to mentions that if the people carrying insurance now whose rates went up moved to the exchange, their rates would likely go down. The one thing here that I'll agree with is that Obama said they could keep their old policies and nothing would happen. But the insurance companies don't see it that way. So those people should move to the exchange.

Clearly with a plan this big, there are bugs to be worked out.

And your link from USA today blames sequestration for the cut in hospital employees do to lower medicare payments. That's the GOP's thing. In fact in order to cut the deal and get the house to stop its current insanity, the Dems had to agree to keep the government going with the sequestration in place. This has nothing to do with Obamacare.

"The new health care law was supposed to ease the burden on hospitals by expanding Medicaid coverage to more low-income Americans, who often use hospital services in emergencies, then don't pay their bills."

You pulled the above quote out of context. More patients usually means more money. But again, sequestration is the reason that more medicare patients will hurt the bottom line. And you left this one out, for obvious reasons:
Still, J.P. Fingado, CEO of API Healthcare, a consulting firm for hospitals, says the layoffs are shortsighted because the providers likely will have to add staff as soon as next year to handle increased patient volumes resulting from the health care law.

"The cuts are a particularly short-term reaction," he says.

As for you comment about socialism, perhaps you should look up the definition. The ACA is a market based approach originally thought up by the Heritage Foundation and implemented successfully in the one state that tried it. Romney's state.

Thanks.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  11:13:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil



Frontpage magazine is a right wing rag.


Yet the folks they quoted were Barry supporters and voters and they were not happy. As for Robert Gibbs the roll out is an embarrassment.

And your link from USA today blames sequestration for the cut in hospital employees do to lower medicare payments.


It that was one of the reason and was responsible for 2% in medicare cuts.

That's the GOP's thing.


Funny cause wekipedia says the sequestration is a result of the Budget Control act of 2011 which was signed into law by Barry.


But again, sequestration is the reason that more medicare patients will hurt the bottom line. And you left this one out, for obvious reasons:


It's one of many reason medicare patients will hurt the bottom line. Maybe Barry should have vetoed it?


As for you comment about socialism, perhaps you should look up the definition. The ACA is a market based approach.


I wish. Once this train wreck fails it will be their stepping stone to what they have really wanted all along, a single payer system where the federal government runs healthcare.

So as you see nothing has changed in spite of your rant. The facts remain that we have major cuts happening right now in healthcare while allegedly major demand increases are just around the corner, which will put further strains on an already lean supply. You have Obamacare taking the burden of all this free healthcare off of the hospitals back and putting right on the backs of the working folks, who will see their healthcare costs go up anywhere from 2X's - 6X's what they pay now so that non-working folks and illegal immigrants can have free healthcare. The working folks who voted for Barry are just now starting to figure this out. I can provide these stories until the cows come home. It's a train wreck happening right before our eyes and even Robert Gibbs has come to grips with this reality. Heck most of the unions have come to this reality.

The unions are finally figuring out what a train wreck this is:

http://www.msnbc.com/all/why-unions-are-turning-obamacare

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/07/15/labor-leaders-obamacare-will-shatter-their-health-benefits-cause-nightmare-scenarios/

So are many dems:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/07/23/moderate-democrats-are-quitting-on-obamacare/

Even those who were inside Barry's inner circle can see the handwriting on the wall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyK-PbrM4Sc

The Chicago Tribune drops the hammer on Obamacare. This is the one to read from start to finish. The Tribune has figured Obamacare out and they don't like what they are seeing.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/10/15/chicago-tribune-drops-the-hammer-on-obamacare/

But most importantly the American people don't want obamacare forced upon them.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/16/usa-today-pew-poll-health-care-law-opposition/2817169/


From the Chicago Trib:

"Those who have managed to browse the marketplace have often been hit by sticker shock. Take Adam Weldzius, a nurse practitioner and single father from Carpentersville. He sought the same level of coverage on the exchange as he and his 7-year-old daughter have now, with the same insurer and the same network of doctors and hospitals. At best, Weldzius found, his monthly premium of $233 would more than double. If he chose a plan priced at the same level, the annual deductible would be $12,700, more than three times his current $3,500 deductible.

I believe everybody should be able to have health insurance, but at the same time, Im being penalized. And for what? Weldzius told the Tribunes Peter Frost. For someone whos always had insurance, whos always taken care of myself, now I have to change my plan?

"There are more problems. People who have individual insurance coverage are finding that Obamas oft-repeated promise if you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan is just not true. They are being told by insurers that their existing plans expire on Dec. 31 and they must choose new coverage. Theyre learning that insurers managed to offer lower-cost plans by narrowing the networks of hospitals and doctors that are available or by upping the out-of-pocket expenses. Unless people are careful in selecting coverage, they may be surprised to find they have to pay much more for out-of-network care to go to their doctors or get treated at the best hospitals. Federal officials argue that theyll work out the kinks in the system in plenty of time for people to sign up by Dec. 15 for coverage that begins Jan. 1. Yes, the techies might be able to work out the computer network problems by then. But thats not a given."

I was laughing at Boehner until the mail came today, Waschura said, referring to House Speaker John Boehner, who is leading the Republican charge to defund Obamacare.

I really dont like the Republican tactics, but at least now I can understand why they are so pissed about this. When you take $10,000 out of my familys pocket each year, thats otherwise disposable income or retirement savings that will not be going into our local economy.

Both Vinson and Waschura have adjusted gross incomes greater than four times the federal poverty level the cutoff for a tax credit. And while both said they anticipated their rates would go up, they didnt realize they would rise so much.

Of course, I want people to have health care, Vinson said. I just didnt realize I would be the one who was going to pay for it personally.




A novel idea but maybe just maybe the next time we decide to overhaul something such as the US healthcare system maybe we ought to expect our elected officials actually read the bill before they pass it. I am sure that makes me old school to have such silly expectations but maybe then we could have avoided this monumental train wreck. We will have to revisit this next year when the exchanges close and then reality can settle this debate for us.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  13:19:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil



The ACA is a market based approach originally thought up by the Heritage Foundation and implemented successfully in the one state that tried it. Romney's state.



But this is comparing apples to oranges. Massachusetts marginal tax rates went up a few tenths of 1% under Rommneycare while under Obamacare national marginal tax rates will go up by 5% on average. Call me gloomy, but Im one who thinks that adding, on average, five percentage points to marginal tax rates will noticeably depress the labor market, while adding a few tenths of a point in Massachusetts did not. So we have cuts in healthcare supply followed by increase in healthcare demand with major added healthcare costs on working Americans and marginal tax rate increases of 5% to top it all off, not to even mention all the other taxes in this gem of a bill. What could go wrong here? (sigh)

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/04/obamacare-vs-romneycare-the-labor-impact/?_r=0

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  20:47:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know what Bill? I'm not going to debate this with you. I've changed my mind. I don't have the time or the inclination to go over this shit anymore. We won. You guys lost.

If you want to do something productive, help to fix the law where it needs fixing. Other than that, get over it. It's the law.

If someone else wants to go around on this with you, that's fine. It's just not worth my time.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  02:06:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Middle class Obama supporters learning socialism 101 the hard way.
Socialism 101 apparently now includes massive profit increases for capitalist insurance companies. This is why it's impossible to take right wingers like you, Bill, seriously.
Theres going to be a number of people surprised by their bills, said Jonathan Wu, a co-founder of ValuePenguin, a consumer finance website. The upper-middle class are the people who are essentially being asked to foot the bill, and thats true across the country.
Most upper-middle-class people are making six figures, minimum.
I really dont like the Republican tactics, but at least now I can understand why they are so pissed about this. When you take $10,000 out of my familys pocket each year, thats otherwise disposable income or retirement savings that will not be going into our local economy.
Retirement savings don't go into the local economy, they go to big banks and fund managers.
Once this train wreck fails it will be their stepping stone to what they have really wanted all along, a single payer system where the federal government runs healthcare.
Which is working fine in all sorts of other non-socialist counties. And the VA isn't the disaster that right-wingers paint it to be. Why do you hate our veterans, Bill?
Call me gloomy, but Im one who thinks that adding, on average, five percentage points to marginal tax rates will noticeably depress the labor market...
Not if it's primarily coming from upper-middle-class employees. You can't have your gloom and doom both ways.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  02:31:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That five-percent figure isn't so bad, anyway. Germany runs their national health care on an eight-percent tax.

Except that eight percent doesn't go to insurance companies, it pays for actual health care. For-profit health insurance is a horrible idea, because it pays its shareholders best when it denies care to - and increases premiums on - its customers.

Of course, big business insurance companies would have never allowed their Congressional lapdogs to vote in favor of nationalizing health care here in the U.S., precisely because doing so would have eliminated them.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  07:50:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I fail to see where free market capitalism is working for health care. I think that health care falls under the Preamble of the Constitution and should be nationalized. And the Republicans/Tea Party can go to hell.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 10/17/2013 07:50:53
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  08:54:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, between my employer and me, we're paying more than eight percent of my gross salary towards health insurance. If we could nationalize the whole mess for eight percent, we'd save money.
Originally posted by Bill scott

From the Chicago Trib:

"Those who have managed to browse the marketplace have often been hit by sticker shock. Take Adam Weldzius, a nurse practitioner and single father from Carpentersville. He sought the same level of coverage on the exchange as he and his 7-year-old daughter have now, with the same insurer and the same network of doctors and hospitals. At best, Weldzius found, his monthly premium of $233 would more than double. If he chose a plan priced at the same level, the annual deductible would be $12,700, more than three times his current $3,500 deductible.
On the other hand:
As for those high prices, I registered on the site and went through the whole process and was very surprised at how relatively inexpensive the policies are. I currently pay $420 a month for my health insurance and that's for a very crappy policy with a high deductible. I can get a much better policy in the ACA health care exchange for much cheaper. Even a platinum plan that pays 90% of the costs of my health care is $132 a month less, without any subsidy. That's going to save me thousands of dollars a year.
Thus is illustrated the problem with arguments built on individual anecdotes: I can find an "Obamacare is awesome" anecdote for every "Obamacare sucks" story you can find.
We will have to revisit this next year when the exchanges close and then reality can settle this debate for us.
Why do you think the exchanges are going to close next year?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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