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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  12:37:15  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Would anyone here take this deal?

The republicans/conservatives/tea party people would give full control of the government over to the democrats/progressives. The left could pass any legislation they like with no opposition from the right.

In return the democrats would support and actively work towards the process that leads to a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion in the United States. Once the amendment becomes part of the constitution, the democrats would have full control to do anything the desire with the United States government except amending the constitution to repeal the abortion amendment.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  14:12:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  14:48:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Giving anyone that kind of power is a horrible idea.

Would a Republican President get to veto the nonsense that the Democrats would pass?

And what about the Judicial branch? Would they still get to find the anything-goes laws that'd be passed unconstitutional? Who would enforce their rulings, especially after the Democrats decide to defund the entire federal court system?

So you're basically asking if preventing abortion is worth giving up everything else about our government. No, of course not.

Oh hey: after the extreme progressives split from the mostly moderate conservatives that make up the current Democratic Party, who gets "full control" then?

If you want to prevent abortion, become an advocate for solid, science-based comprehensive sex ed beginning in elementary school and continuing through high school. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free distribution of birth control. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to eliminate the stigma of being unwed and pregnant. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free pre-natal and well-baby care. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for a true social safety net that prevents people from having to decide between having a child and finishing high school (or continuing employment, or being able to eat, etc). If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for an end to discrimination in even private adoption agencies. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to end to our rape culture.

Implementing all these things would reduce the need for abortions by a huge percentage, and would be a boatload easier to actually accomplish than the deal hypothesized above, and wouldn't require the end of government as we know it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  18:09:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
If you want to prevent abortion, become an advocate for solid, science-based comprehensive sex ed beginning in elementary school and continuing through high school. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free distribution of birth control. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to eliminate the stigma of being unwed and pregnant. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free pre-natal and well-baby care. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for a true social safety net that prevents people from having to decide between having a child and finishing high school (or continuing employment, or being able to eat, etc). If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for an end to discrimination in even private adoption agencies. If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to end to our rape culture.

Implementing all these things would reduce the need for abortions by a huge percentage, and would be a boatload easier to actually accomplish than the deal hypothesized above, and wouldn't require the end of government as we know it.
Right! And it should also be mentioned that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  23:09:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Horrible deal. The Democrats would be poking a stick in the eyes of the feminist part of their base, and would end up the weaker for it. Even if it got as far as a Constitutional amendment, the "full control by the Democrats" part would be unenforceable. Later Presidents and Congresses could disown such a deal, saying it was non-binding on them, and the USA would be stuck with an anti-woman Constitution, and become even more the Buffoon of the Western World.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  07:41:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Giving anyone that kind of power is a horrible idea.
I agree

So you're basically asking if preventing abortion is worth giving up everything else about our government. No, of course not.
I was trying to ask if you could have the government you want, whatever policies you think are best for the country without any opposition. I usually ask this to rabid progressives that think that the presidents policies are all correct and the republicans are all extreme bigots.

How about is there anything deal you would make in return for abolishing abortion in the US?

If you want to prevent abortion, become an advocate for solid, science-based comprehensive sex ed beginning in elementary school and continuing through high school.
I am for this as long as any parent can opt their child out. My children take these classes.

If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free distribution of birth control.
Birth control is not free, someone is paying for it. I am not against this as long as it only prevents fertilization.

If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to eliminate the stigma of being unwed and pregnant.
Do you think this stigma still exists?

If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free pre-natal and well-baby care.
Prenatal care is not free. I do support this for women that cannot afford it themselves.

If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for a true social safety net that prevents people from having to decide between having a child and finishing high school (or continuing employment, or being able to eat, etc).
I assume you are proposing a government program? There are many non-governmental programs that do this. I would be for revamping our entire safety net system and not just adding another.

If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for an end to discrimination in even private adoption agencies.
What discrimination are you talking about?

If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to end to our rape culture.
???

Implementing all these things would reduce the need for abortions by a huge percentage, and would be a boatload easier to actually accomplish than the deal hypothesized above, and wouldn't require the end of government as we know it.
I agree with most of your ideas here and am involved either directly or indirectly in most of them. However, it would never stop abortions which is the greatest injustice humanity has ever conceived.

There is a movement in the Christian church in America to get away from the pregnancy crisis centers which are mainly there to prevent an abortion to taking care of women in this situation emotionally, physically and financially by church members becoming involved in their lives and love one another like Christ commanded even if they had an abortion.

In our church if a teen/woman/couple comes to us and needs help in this situation a call goes out to the church for assistance. Families and individuals come together to provide money, healthcare, friendship etc. before and after birth. They stay with her until she is financially and emotionally independent. They take care of the baby while she works or goes to school and will probably always be involved in their lives. Sometimes a family will adopt the baby. We will also take care of them if they decide to have an abortion. This is what I believe Christ meant by loving one another, thinking others more important than yourself, do unto others etc.

Sometimes Christians lose track of the Gospel and forget that God judges sin and we do not. We are just as sinful as whatever a pregnant woman might have done. Christ died for all sin and can forgive sex outside of marriage and anyone having an abortion. Christians are called to judge right doctrine and but not to judge sin.

I can do these things as a Christian to help pregnant women and still fight to abolish this hellish act in the US.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  07:44:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Right! And it should also be mentioned that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe.
This does not justify killing children.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  08:03:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Kil

Right! And it should also be mentioned that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe.
This does not justify killing children.
Even if I were to agree with you, does that justify putting so many women at risk?
Researchers from the World Health Organization in Geneva and the Guttmacher Institute, a reproductive rights group in New York, said 13 percent of women's deaths during pregnancy and childbirth are caused by abortion, The New York Times said Friday.
The study found about 20 million abortions that would be considered unsafe are performed each year, and 67,000 women die as a result of complications.

That's 67,000 women dead for a law that does nothing but satisfy your religiously based convictions. Fair exchange?

Report: Abortion laws don't stop abortions

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  09:23:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

That's 67,000 women dead for a law that does nothing but satisfy your religiously based convictions. Fair exchange?
I don't want anyone to die from an abortion including the unborn.

Report: Abortion laws don't stop abortions
Abortions in the US increased after it became legal in the US. Why should statistics matter if our government/society condones legally killing over 3,300 people a day? Trees are not the only things worth saving.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  10:12:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Kil

Right! And it should also be mentioned that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe.
This does not justify killing children.
Pure Baloney! That is one big lie, of several, in your deluded thinking on this subject. The fertilization of an egg by a sperm does not create a child or children by any stretch of the imagination. The fertilization of an egg by a sperm is called a Zygote. A single cell zygote is not a child, it's a fact that you can't accept, give it up. The deceitful practice of making up definitions in an attempt to change reality is intellectually dishonest. Stop it.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  10:15:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Kil

That's 67,000 women dead for a law that does nothing but satisfy your religiously based convictions. Fair exchange?
I don't want anyone to die from an abortion including the unborn.


Yes. But the result of making abortion illegal will mean even more people will die. Including lots of would be mothers.

In any case, we should not be making laws based on a segment of the populations religious convictions. What they should do is not have abortions if that's how they feel.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  10:28:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Kil

Right! And it should also be mentioned that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe.
This does not justify killing children.

Luckily, I'm not aware of anyone advocating killing children.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  12:07:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did I say no? I meant Hell No.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  14:04:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Kil

Right! And it should also be mentioned that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe.
This does not justify killing children.
Pure Baloney! That is one big lie, of several, in your deluded thinking on this subject. The fertilization of an egg by a sperm does not create a child or children by any stretch of the imagination. The fertilization of an egg by a sperm is called a Zygote. A single cell zygote is not a child, it's a fact that you can't accept, give it up. The deceitful practice of making up definitions in an attempt to change reality is intellectually dishonest. Stop it.
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  14:08:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

I was trying to ask if you could have the government you want, whatever policies you think are best for the country without any opposition.
There's a difference between government and governance. The only things I would change about our government would be to eliminate the Electoral College and mandate top-three voting for all public positions, thus ensuring that third-party candidates have a fair shot. I might also ensure that corporations are no longer considered people with regard to the Bill of Rights.

What I would change about our governance is to mandate enough civics classes that our citizenry demands representatives who are smart, informed, honest and interested in actually solving problems. Who one might like to have a beer with is a stupid, anti-intellectual standard for voting, and breeds a governing body filled with thugs, self-aggrandizers and people who are wildly ignorant of the reality of the world about which they must create policy and law. If we want the United States of America to be exceptional, then we need to elect competent, elite politicians, not everymen drinking buddies. While most people want us to be top dog on the planet, the way they vote has us right on track for mediocrity.
I usually ask this to rabid progressives that think that the presidents policies are all correct and the republicans are all extreme bigots.
Then you're asking rabid centrists. The rabid progressives think that Obama is a corporatist thug.
How about is there anything deal you would make in return for abolishing abortion in the US?
No. The fundamental rights of privacy and self-determination trump all possible secular governmental interests in abortion. (Basing policy on sectarian religious ideas is, of course, unconstitutional.)

But look at that, I can't even personally get an abortion, but these rights are so important that I won't accept the grandest of bribes for them. How about you? What rights that you personally exercise would you be willing to give up in return for an abortion rate of zero? If I could snap my fingers and end all abortions tomorow, would you... blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? ...Collect and burn Bibles? ...Help put all Christians in internment camps in Alaska?
If you want to prevent abortion, become an advocate for solid, science-based comprehensive sex ed beginning in elementary school and continuing through high school.
I am for this as long as any parent can opt their child out.
Then you are in favor of a policy that conflicts with your stated goal, since ignorance of sex and contraception leads to unwanted pregnancies for which abortions will be sought. To put it in your terms, allowing people to opt out of sex-ed leads to the killing of children.
If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free distribution of birth control.
Birth control is not free, someone is paying for it.
The cost to society of unwanted pregnancies and children is greater than the potential cost of publicly provided birth control. We will save money by socializing contraception, and so it will be better than free.
I am not against this as long as it only prevents fertilization.
And that includes emergency contraception like "Plan B One-Step," or the "morning-after pill."
If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to eliminate the stigma of being unwed and pregnant.
Do you think this stigma still exists?
Yes, and the younger a woman is, the more the stigma is felt. Actually, the real stigma that needs to be eliminated is about sex. If a teen doesn't feel comfortable telling her parents that she's become sexually active, then she can't seek guidance from them and is more likely to make simple mistakes which could lead to seeking an abortion (which, if she can't afford it on her own, may be more dangerous than the one her parents could help her finance). But there are idiotic cultural mores that have been at work for decades to ensure that abstaining girls are insulted as prudes (while sexual girls are insulted as sluts), but parents of girls are expected to react with shock/horror at the merest hint of an idea that their daughter is doing what they themselves probably did.
If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for free pre-natal and well-baby care.
Prenatal care is not free.
Would you prefer more abortions? Are fiscal considerations going to trump your desire to see a higher percentage of "children" saved? Say that medical science could plausibly create a life-pod that could grow every zygote sucessfully to full-blown babyhood, but research, development and production required a 50% flat, non-waivable tax on abortion abolitionists. Would half your income be too much to part with to realize your goal?
I do support this for women that cannot afford it themselves.
If I were you, I would support it for all women so that "I can't afford both pre-natal care and rent, but I earn too much money to be covered by the public program" fails to be a reason to get an abortion.
If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for a true social safety net that prevents people from having to decide between having a child and finishing high school (or continuing employment, or being able to eat, etc).
I assume you are proposing a government program? There are many non-governmental programs that do this.
Name three.
I would be for revamping our entire safety net system and not just adding another.
I'm all for that, too, along with nationalizing all of health care.
If you want to prevent abortion, advocate for an end to discrimination in even private adoption agencies.
What discrimination are you talking about?
Mostly against members of the LGBT communities, but plain-old racial discrimination still exists amongst prospective adoptive parents (white babies get adopted faster than brown babies, etc.)
If you want to prevent abortion, advocate to end to our rape culture.
???
We live in a culture in which "NO" is often ignored, or women are afraid to say it. If we were to change society so that only the psychotic were rapists, there would be a lot less non-consensual sex and thus a lot fewer unwanted pregnancies.
However, it would never stop abortions which is the greatest injustice humanity has ever conceived.
Nothing will ever stop abortions. Prohibition doesn't work.
In our church if a teen/woman/couple comes to us and needs help in this situation a call goes out to the church for assistance. Families and individuals come together to provide money, healthcare, friendship etc. before and after birth. They stay with her until she is financially and emotionally independent. They take care of the baby while she works or goes to school and will probably always be involved in their lives. Sometimes a family will adopt the baby. We will also take care of them if they decide to have an abortion. This is what I believe Christ meant by loving one another, thinking others more important than yourself, do unto others etc.
Great! Secularize and nationalize that system, and you'll really be onto something!
I can do these things as a Christian to help pregnant women and still fight to abolish this hellish act in the US.
Abolition is impossible, but if it weren't, it would be cruel. You should be seeking a rational minimization of the practice instead of a zero-tolerance nightmare.

In other comments of yours:
This does not justify killing children.

...killing over 3,300 people a day?
Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses: none of those are either children or people.
Abortions in the US increased after it became legal in the US.
Since reporting abortions isn't mandatory now and wasn't really an option prior to 1973, you'll have a hard time proving that. Looking at a chart like this, we can estimate that the number of abortions almost doubled between 1974 and 1992, but this table suggests that the number of abortions went up by a factor of 2,666(!) in the 18 years before 1974, so the rate-of-increase of abortion had been slashed to 0.075% of its pre-Roe v. Wade rate, and is now near 0%. (Of course, that's bad statistics: certainly nobody believes that in 1956, there were only 337 abortions performed nationwide.)

By the way, the 3,300/day figure is obviously outdated. In 2009, there were 784,507 reported abortions, or only 2,149/day. Of course, none of these numbers compares to god's rate either during the Flood or in wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah. Hell, god allowed 2.5 million people to die in 2008 in the U.S. alone, a rate of 6,849/day.

Of course, god alone holds the power of life and death, so it must be god's will for all those abortions to happen, no? Certainly no abortion doctor can contravene the will of god...

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  14:42:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by [b]Dave W.
Of course, god alone holds the power of life and death, so it must be god's will for all those abortions to happen, no? Certainly no abortion doctor can contravene the will of god...



by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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