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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  07:23:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

If a link is provided might as well be Casey Luskins, then we can all .
Of course, because Down Syndrome isn't caused by chromosomal fusion.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  08:24:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

If a link is provided might as well be Casey Luskins, then we can all .
Nice link/article.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  13:27:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

We're not all idiots

I never said, nor implied that you are. I regard most Skeptic Friends to be way ahead on the curve. Note that I did write "average", not "all". The average high-school-only graduate is a creationist.


Also, average high school graduates may not know what chromosomes are.

That's really, truly sad.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  14:02:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

That's really, truly sad.
I graduated from high school in one of the ten largest, richest counties in this country at the time. I was required to take only two science classes (four years of high school, six classes per year, so science needed to be only 1/12th of my education). Most people got by taking only a freshman "earth science" class (basics of geology, weather, etc.) and a basic biology class. I know we disected frogs, and disproved spontaneous generation, but I don't remember if chromosomes were discussed at all in that class (it's been 29 years). I do remember not getting into Mendellian inheritance until Biology II, two years later.

(I took Earth Sciece, Biology, Chemistry, Biology II and Physics. I was definitely not an average student. Remember also that the "average" student need only recall enough stuff they'd been taught and do enough homework to get an overall score of 80% for the whole class year, after which, if they weren't going on to more science classes, they were free to forget it.)

My wife, while getting her Associates degree at our local community college, took a biology class and had to learn all sorts of stuff I know we didn't touch on back in high school (even in the Bio II course) like meiosis, mitosis and all the rest of the stages of cell division and reproduction. They must expect kids coming straight out of high school to not know any of that, because it wasn't a "refresher" course at all.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  17:55:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Swedish school system is a bit different from USA, so I'm a bit unsure how to match your high-school to our "college-lite".
We have 9 years compulsory school which starts the year of our 7th birthday. 9th year is the last year of our compulsory school, the year of our 16th birthday. Year 7 through 9 we have biology at least 40minutes/week all three years, with year 9 including basic evolutionary theory including the history of life from first bacteria, cyano-bacteria --> eucaryotes --> multicelled organisms --> amphibians, reptiles, mammals. Basic human physiology including human sexual reproduction, including the number of human chromosomes and basic hereditary of traits (like parents with brown eyes can have blue eyed children).
Parallell to biology classes are chemistry and physics.

Year 10-x are not compulsory, and we may choose direction (humanities, economics, technical or natural science, all three years, or more specialised 2 year courses like auto mechanics, health care, business secretary, other low education service occupations) the two year courses usually don't get you qualified to move to the university to study for a bachelors degree.


(Edited blue above to clarify)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/10/2014 14:54:54
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  21:31:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by Machi4velli

We're not all idiots

I never said, nor implied that you are. I regard most Skeptic Friends to be way ahead on the curve. Note that I did write "average", not "all". The average high-school-only graduate is a creationist.


Also, average high school graduates may not know what chromosomes are.

That's really, truly sad.



I know, I know, I was just attempting to set up my next exaggerated line! Pretty sure more than half know what chromosomes are

Less than half of high school graduates are actually hardcore no evolution no big bang creationists I think (scarily close...), but you're most likely correct that among people whose highest level of education is high school.

The only reason I say this is because a lot of high school grads who continue to higher education already weren't this sort of creationists before they got any more education, and, so, high school is doing better than that.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/Evolution-Creationism-Intelligent-Design.aspx

I can't necessarily say old Earth creationism is all that easy to refute. I'd say it's "not even wrong" and be done with it, but I don't consider it necessarily wildly ignorant like YEC.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 02/04/2014 21:43:46
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2014 :  12:52:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A caller to a radio show I listen to didn't even recognize "phenotype" as an English word yesterday. She thought her phone was getting such crappy reception she couldn't understand the guy. He even spelled it for her.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1268 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  00:13:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
also if fusions are the only means where the chromosome count can change and produce fertile offspring we would expect to see fused chromosomes in all closely related species with different numbers of chromosomes, and we DON'T

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  07:17:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

also if fusions are the only means where the chromosome count can change and produce fertile offspring...
That's a pretty big "if," considering we know it to be false. Duplications can also change chromosome count without affecting fertility, as has been documented in this very thread.

Whole-genome duplications can happen, too. Happens a lot in plants, which has led to ferns with 600+ chromosomes (for one example).

So... you're not even going to bother trying to produce any evidence of "the known effects of fusions of any of the human chromosomes." You're not even going to bother acknowledging that your claim has been questioned.

Just keep your eyes shut to reality. Carry on as if you're the font of wisdom. The arrogance of ignorance strikes another blow against straw-Darwin.

Oh, also:
...we would expect to see fused chromosomes in all closely related species with different numbers of chromosomes, and we DON'T
Define "closely." Time erases evidence. The reason we know so much about the chromosome 2 fusion event in humans is that it happened a mere six million years ago (or so).

However, echidna and platypus have experienced fusions or fissions (it's impossible to tell without more related species, which don't exist). Do you need more examples of what you claim we don't see?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend

United Kingdom
172 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2014 :  11:39:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send welshdean a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Darwin didn't know about genetics, but if he did he probably would have thrown his tome "the Origin of Species" out with the bathwater.
As everyone knows human beings have 23 pairs of chromosomes, but all the great apes have 24 right? So "evolution" would suggest the ape/human common ancestor had 24 too. Now there is no moment when a whole species suddenly changes their number of chromosomes. It has to start with 1 random mutation and proliferate based upon the mutation's success.

So one day this common ancestor gives birth to something with a mutation; 2 chromosomes fused together. Now this infant abomination only has 23 chromosomes. What do we know about things with different numbers of chromosomes trying to breed? They usually have infertile offspring IF they can breed at all.
So the freak progeny, the supposed patriarch/matriarch of the human race would be pretty much the same as its ape brethren except for the huge problem of having low fertility or sterile offspring. Great mutation, I can really see that catching on!
In fact this problem pretty much kills the whole speciation myth dead.

Evolution: Debunked. Next please.


Wow.
I've been away from this site for a few years and it seems as though nothing, nothing at all has changed.
It appears that after 155 years and thousands, no 100's of thousands of published research papers, you have the audacity to think that a poorly worded, grammatically woeful, scientifically ludicrous diatribe such as that presented above has 'Debunked' the ToE?
Remind me again, why are the atheists regarded as the 'arrogant' group in this discussion?

On fire for Christ, did you used to post on the JREF message boards?

"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."

"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."

"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."

---- Muhammad Ali


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