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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13377 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  21:55:41  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill Nye to debate Ken Ham?!


‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham


Bill Nye “The Science Guy” is scheduled to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham next month.

The former children’s television host and outspoken critic of creationist teaching will discuss whether the Bible-based version of Earth’s origins is a viable model Feb. 4 at the museum in Petersburg, Kentucky.

The debate starts at 7 p.m., and tickets will cost $25.

Ham, the president and CEO of Answers in Genesis, said he was excited to face off against Nye.

“It’s quite rare these days for such a well-known evolutionist to publicly debate a creationist so we do expect a lot of media interest,” Ham said on his Facebook page.

But not everyone is thrilled by the idea.


I'm agin it. But there you go.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25909 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  23:08:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not thrilled with the idea, either.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  04:04:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rule number one in oral debates: The winner is the fastest mouth with the lowest morals.
Without the possibility to counter ever spurious claim of fact, Ken Ham can Gish-gallop Nye out of the ballpark, across town and into the next county.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  07:29:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good grief, what a joke! I wouldn't spend a penny to attend such a colossal waste of time. To tailor a comment I've heard about debating delusional thinkers, "That would look good on Ken's resume but not so good on Bill's".

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  08:07:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Rule number one in oral debates: The winner is the fastest mouth with the lowest morals.

Without a doubt that would depend on who's doing the debating. Hitchens and Fry did a smashingly good job in a 2 hour debate on whether or not the Catholic Church is a force for good in the world. This closing segment, @7:40 minutes into the video, gives the outcome of the debate with respect to the audience's opinion taken before and after the debate.

Without the possibility to counter ever spurious claim of fact, Ken Ham can Gish-gallop Nye out of the ballpark, across town and into the next county.

I agree Dr. Mabuse but not because there won't be the ability to "counter ever spurious claim of fact" as you put it. It's because when people's beliefs are not based on the demonstrable facts but base on the misrepresentation and outright lies about the facts it not possible to change their minds. Debates on these kind of beliefs are fruitless and has little to no effect on opinions before and after.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13377 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  11:08:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah. For several reasons, it seems the only one who has anything to gain by this is Ham. Even if he isn't accomplished at the Gish Gallop, Nye showing up gives the debate credibility. And since it's being held at Ham's "museum" he gets the proceeds and the edit. He's a very happy guy right now.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  14:16:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Without the possibility to counter ever spurious claim of fact, Ken Ham can Gish-gallop Nye out of the ballpark, across town and into the next county.

I agree Dr. Mabuse but not because there won't be the ability to "counter ever spurious claim of fact" as you put it. It's because when people's beliefs are not based on the demonstrable facts but base on the misrepresentation and outright lies about the facts it not possible to change their minds. Debates on these kind of beliefs are fruitless and has little to no effect on opinions before and after.
This is a big win for Ken Ham in that he gets a chance to preach to his choir, securing their continued financial support and bolster their faith in him as a rightous crusader.

But the real damage is that undecided people sitting on the fence, especially Christians who are undecided about evolution versus creationism, are likely to get persuaded by this kind of debate.
They will not be as critical to Ken Ham's argument as we are, and when his many "facts" can't be challenged on a case-by-case basis with evidence, they will assume that he is not lying his ass off, because that's not what Christians do.
Therefore, unable to challenge a Gish-gallop's multitude of falsehoods, what other recourse does Nye have but to challenge Ham's claims as a whole. This might even be impossible if Ham also includes several or even many claims about how science works that are true. Then Nye can't say that Ham's all full of shit.

I still think that this is a no-win situation for Bill Nye. No matter how smart he is.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Thrinaxodon
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2014 :  16:21:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Thrinaxodon's Homepage Send Thrinaxodon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ham is going to win, the truth triumphs over the Dark Side (AKA the scientific establishment who have been suppressing valid research over human origins), well, let's have a nice smooth news post:

================
>BREAKING NEWS!
================
>
THRINAXODON SPEARHEADED THE ASSAULT ON RICHARD DAWKINS, KNOWN FOR
SUPPRESSION OF VALID RESEARCH OF HUMAN ORIGINS FOR YEARS, JUST TO GET A
BUCK OUT OF BRAINWASHING CHILDREN'S LIVES INTO THE SCAM OF EVOLUTION.
>
Dawkins was charged with OVER 9000! complaints of mind-control, torture,
and pyramid schemes where he got millions of dollars out of the American
populace over the scam of evolution.
>
This is what Dawkins said when he faced the charges, "SHIT! How am I
going to get money now!" Later, his charges were reduced to probation.
He is now broke.
>
According to Thrinaxodon, PHD, an expert on human origins, "The loss of
Dawkins is a great blow to the evolutionist establishment, with no
figurehead the scientific establishement that has been dominating
American politics for 150 years is now falling down under it's own
weight. How are people like AronRa or James Watson going to get money
now? No-one knows."
>
When Dawkins was asked how the scientific establishement was going to
rebuild, he said "I don't know. Maybe, just maybe, we'll have to move on
to another scam. Like the Big Bang."
>
===================================
>
MAN AS OLD AS FROGS!
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.bio.paleontology/buAVigqX9Ts
>
TO FIND OUT HOW MAN IS AS OLD AS FROGS, VISIT:
http://thrinaxodon.wordpress.com/faq

THRINAXODON IS EVERYBODY'S FRIEND.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13377 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2014 :  19:14:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From one of the links:

FAQ
Who is Thrinaxodon?

Thrinaxodon is a scientist, having discovered that Humans originated in the Devonian, and that Obama is secretly taking over the world.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25909 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2014 :  20:02:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Thrinaxodon

...OVER 9000!...
And you've finally broken through Poe's Law. Your old posts were much better bait. The meme ruined this one.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

United Kingdom
1255 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2014 :  01:03:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Funny though

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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1414 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2014 :  12:59:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A summary of the debate:
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13377 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2014 :  19:36:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

A summary of the debate:
Yeah. That was pretty much it.

Ham's main arguments were 1. There are scientists who are also creationists and 2. If you didn't personally see it happen (regardless of the evidence) it's open to interpretation. In other words, you can make up any shit you want to, and he likes the bible's version.

I saw it on the NPR feed. Nye disappointed me. Not that I expected much, but he missed many opportunities. Whatever...


Waste of time.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2014 :  19:58:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by KilNye disappointed me. Not that I expected much, but he missed many opportunities.
I was very disappointed in the way he answered some questions with "We don't know", and left it there. He should have made it plain that in science it's perfectly okay to say "we don't know", because it's usually followed by the word 'yet'. "We don't know" should definitely be seen as a beginning, not an end.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2014 :  16:02:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My breaking point was when they asked Ham what pieces of information could change his mind about YEC, and he literally said nothing could even theoretically change his mind about any of it.

Then Nye offers 6-7 examples of things that could change his mind about various scientific methods used to date the Earth and/or the universe.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

United Kingdom
1255 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  00:14:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I liked when Nye went off on a tangent about fish sex. That really turned the audience around...

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