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 What are your thoughts on vaccinations?
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capturealoha
Spammer

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2018 :  09:23:37  Show Profile Send capturealoha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know this is a hot-button issue so I'm curious... What are your guys' thoughts on vaccinations for children?

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2018 :  11:38:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by capturealoha

I know this is a hot-button issue so I'm curious... What are your guys' thoughts on vaccinations for children?
I'm very much for them. I'm also okay with them being mandated by schools. Vaccinations are not controversial among pediatricians, immunologists, medical doctors or the science community in general. Vaccinations save lives of both those being vaccinated and those who can't be vaccinated because of a weak immune system for one reason or another. They are protected by herd immunity, which only works if most people are vaccinated.

All arguments against vaccination have been debunked over and over again. But pseudoscience driven fear-mongering persists. So now we get to see illnesses that were rare or almost wiped out making a comeback. If it were up to me, Andrew Wakefield would be spending his life in jail. I consider him a murderer.

So that's how I feel about vaccinations for children.

And welcome to SFN,capturealoha.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2018 :  23:04:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vaccination has been such a massive public health success that I feel the same way about vaccinations for adults. Mandate them. Quarantine non-compliant adults, fine or imprison anti-vax propagandists as menaces to society and/or mass murderers, and bring down the hell of child protective services on parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1448 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2018 :  11:26:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vaccines shouldn't be a hot-button topic. Vaccines are a triumph of medicine and public health, only to be undermined by righteous ignoramuses.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  14:00:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What Kil, Dave W., and ThorGoLucky said... Especially what Dave W. said.

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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2019 :  07:56:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Vaccination has been such a massive public health success that I feel the same way about vaccinations for adults. Mandate them. Quarantine non-compliant adults, fine or imprison anti-vax propagandists as menaces to society and/or mass murderers, and bring down the hell of child protective services on parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

What vaccinations would you mandate?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2019 :  19:29:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

What vaccinations would you mandate?
All that are age/location/context appropriate.

The current outbreak of measles in the Northwest was almost assuredly completely preventable.

This poor kid was essentially tortured by his parents for two months. Before that, Oregon hadn't had a case of lockjaw for three freakin' decades.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2019 :  20:03:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
This poor kid was essentially tortured by his parents for two months. Before that, Oregon hadn't had a case of lockjaw for three freakin' decades.
This one really blows my mind because the parents are so anti-vax that they are still refusing to vaccinate the kid. The boy almost dies from a vaccine-preventable disease and they think the vaccine will do worse?



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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2019 :  09:43:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Robb

What vaccinations would you mandate?
All that are age/location/context appropriate.

The current outbreak of measles in the Northwest was almost assuredly completely preventable.

This poor kid was essentially tortured by his parents for two months. Before that, Oregon hadn't had a case of lockjaw for three freakin' decades.
I agree with you. I have vaccinated all my kids and expect other to as well. I live in Texas and they do have a law that requires all public school children to be vaccinated. The problem is that there is a waiver that you can get and as best as I can tell it is never denied.

Are there any vaccinations that you think may be dangerous?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2019 :  09:48:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by Dave W.
This poor kid was essentially tortured by his parents for two months. Before that, Oregon hadn't had a case of lockjaw for three freakin' decades.
This one really blows my mind because the parents are so anti-vax that they are still refusing to vaccinate the kid. The boy almost dies from a vaccine-preventable disease and they think the vaccine will do worse?



My sister works in a medical lab and knows more about how the biology of vaccines work more than most. Her son was diagnosed with autism around 2 and even though she knew there was no link to autism and vaccines she still had the thoughts whether it could be caused by be a vaccine. I think this is where the anti-vaxers are terrible in that they bring this to peoples mind when they are dealing with a diagnosis. My nephew is 14 now and my sister knows there is no correlation but at the time she felt like maybe she caused it.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2019 :  09:55:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Vaccination has been such a massive public health success that I feel the same way about vaccinations for adults. Mandate them. Quarantine non-compliant adults, fine or imprison anti-vax propagandists as menaces to society and/or mass murderers, and bring down the hell of child protective services on parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

This seems extreme. I am for mandating vaccinations for schools, public employees or other activities, but do you think we have a right to refuse to put something into our bodies we don't consent to? Isn't this part of the reason for advocating abortion rights?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2019 :  19:22:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by Dave W.

Vaccination has been such a massive public health success that I feel the same way about vaccinations for adults. Mandate them. Quarantine non-compliant adults, fine or imprison anti-vax propagandists as menaces to society and/or mass murderers, and bring down the hell of child protective services on parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

This seems extreme. I am for mandating vaccinations for schools, public employees or other activities, but do you think we have a right to refuse to put something into our bodies we don't consent to?
The classic libertarian slogan of "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose" comes to mind.

Vaccination is a public health issue. Unvaccinated individuals represent a health risk to everyone, even people who've received vaccines, because rarely vaccines don't work (but you won't know until you're sick), and some people have weird immune systems (my wife got mumps three times after vaccination). So how far does a person's right to spread disease to other, unconsenting people go? I'd say no further than the tip of their noses. Don't forget that children cannot legally consent to accept someone else's Corynebacterium diphtheriae (for example), and they're generally the ones at biggest risk from vaccine-preventable diseases and also the most affected by them.

Thinking about it, adults can't consent to accepting other peoples' diseases unless they know beforehand that the disease is present. So what's better, mandatory vaccination on the one hand, or scarlet letters for disease carriers on the other? For example, can we force all people with Hep-B to wear a big red HB? Or is that a consent issue, also? Actually, nope, that's a First Amendment issue: the government cannot compel people to publish their disease status.

By the way, can you think of a person who is not a hermit who doesn't regularly enter into public places with lots of other people? Your list of "schools, public employees or other activities" leaves out anyone who goes out to movie theaters, pools, restaurants, or sports arenas. Subway riders are often crammed together with lots of non-consensual touching, so they all need vaccination, too. But who hasn't sneezed while waiting in line at the grocery store? Can every public accommodation and government facility post a sign saying "unvaccinated not welcome?" How could the owners of a vape shop with such a sign verify the vaccination status of all their customers?

They can't. And the sign idea is silly anyway because even the hermits sometimes find themselves inside public shelters due to natural disasters, and nobody's going to kick them out. It's impossible to predict who will never be in a public situation where they might spread a disease, and so could safely remain unvaccinated.

Isn't this part of the reason for advocating abortion rights?
I'm sorry, are you analogizing a zygote to a vaccine? I suppose if you assume that all zygotes will become Jonas Salks or Edward Jenners, but that's really stretching it.

No, the consent issue with regards to abortion is about rape, and there it is the sexual act that's non-consensual. The result is a part of the woman's body and getting it removed has no public health ramifications at all. Just like if the zygote were the result of consensual sex.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2019 :  09:07:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From today's Scientific American:

Opting Out of Vaccines Should Opt You Out of American Society

...Even though consuming alcohol and driving are both legal activities, they are not legal when performed together. Nearly 11,000 people die every year because people choose to exercise their “rights” inappropriately.

The exact same reasoning applies to vaccination. There is no moral difference between a drunk driver and a willfully unvaccinated person. Both are selfishly, recklessly and knowingly putting the lives of everyone they encounter at risk. Their behavior endangers the health, safety and livelihood of the innocent bystanders who happen to have the misfortune of being in their path.






Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2019 :  10:40:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by Dave W.

Vaccination has been such a massive public health success that I feel the same way about vaccinations for adults. Mandate them. Quarantine non-compliant adults, fine or imprison anti-vax propagandists as menaces to society and/or mass murderers, and bring down the hell of child protective services on parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

This seems extreme. I am for mandating vaccinations for schools, public employees or other activities, but do you think we have a right to refuse to put something into our bodies we don't consent to?
The classic libertarian slogan of "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose" comes to mind.

Vaccination is a public health issue. Unvaccinated individuals represent a health risk to everyone, even people who've received vaccines, because rarely vaccines don't work (but you won't know until you're sick), and some people have weird immune systems (my wife got mumps three times after vaccination). So how far does a person's right to spread disease to other, unconsenting people go? I'd say no further than the tip of their noses. Don't forget that children cannot legally consent to accept someone else's Corynebacterium diphtheriae (for example), and they're generally the ones at biggest risk from vaccine-preventable diseases and also the most affected by them.

Thinking about it, adults can't consent to accepting other peoples' diseases unless they know beforehand that the disease is present. So what's better, mandatory vaccination on the one hand, or scarlet letters for disease carriers on the other? For example, can we force all people with Hep-B to wear a big red HB? Or is that a consent issue, also? Actually, nope, that's a First Amendment issue: the government cannot compel people to publish their disease status.

By the way, can you think of a person who is not a hermit who doesn't regularly enter into public places with lots of other people? Your list of "schools, public employees or other activities" leaves out anyone who goes out to movie theaters, pools, restaurants, or sports arenas. Subway riders are often crammed together with lots of non-consensual touching, so they all need vaccination, too. But who hasn't sneezed while waiting in line at the grocery store? Can every public accommodation and government facility post a sign saying "unvaccinated not welcome?" How could the owners of a vape shop with such a sign verify the vaccination status of all their customers?

They can't. And the sign idea is silly anyway because even the hermits sometimes find themselves inside public shelters due to natural disasters, and nobody's going to kick them out. It's impossible to predict who will never be in a public situation where they might spread a disease, and so could safely remain unvaccinated.
What percentage of people that are vaccinated acquire the disease they are vaccinated against? Wouldn't the people most at risk be people that chose not to be vaccinated?

I am not against vaccinations at all I am just a little uneasy allowing the government mandate what we put in our bodies.

Isn't this part of the reason for advocating abortion rights?
I'm sorry, are you analogizing a zygote to a vaccine? I suppose if you assume that all zygotes will become Jonas Salks or Edward Jenners, but that's really stretching it.

No, the consent issue with regards to abortion is about rape, and there it is the sexual act that's non-consensual. The result is a part of the woman's body and getting it removed has no public health ramifications at all. Just like if the zygote were the result of consensual sex.
I have heard pro choice people say that a woman needs to give consent the entire time she is pregnant, it is her right to have an abortion at any time if she declines consent anymore. This is what I was getting at. We should have to give consent to whatever we put in our bodies. I am not sure if that is your view or not.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2019 :  10:59:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

From today's Scientific American:

Opting Out of Vaccines Should Opt You Out of American Society

...Even though consuming alcohol and driving are both legal activities, they are not legal when performed together. Nearly 11,000 people die every year because people choose to exercise their “rights” inappropriately.

The exact same reasoning applies to vaccination. There is no moral difference between a drunk driver and a willfully unvaccinated person. Both are selfishly, recklessly and knowingly putting the lives of everyone they encounter at risk. Their behavior endangers the health, safety and livelihood of the innocent bystanders who happen to have the misfortune of being in their path.






I have seen where many courts uphold laws requiring vaccinations for public schools and uphold the exemptions. I could not find any rulings on government mandating vaccinations as just existing in the US. This is shaky ground to me.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 03/22/2019 :  21:40:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

What percentage of people that are vaccinated acquire the disease they are vaccinated against? Wouldn't the people most at risk be people that chose not to be vaccinated?
If it's an argument about consent, then even one case of non-consensual vaccine-preventable disease transmission is too many. And one case of non-consensual mandated vaccination is too many. So if the argument is about consent, everyone loses. And since everyone loses, I'd much prefer to lose in such a way that our society is healthier. In other words, the argument must become entirely political.

If, instead, we can talk about relative risk, then that's quite a bit different. About 1 in 100 won't get immunity from measles from the MMR vaccine. But, the same article says, we only need about 95 out of 100 people to be immune to protect those who aren't. We need only look to Washington state to see the effects of failed herd immunity to measles.

On the other hand, here is detailed info on side effects of the MMR vaccine.

But even better, regular people don't get smallpox vaccines any longer, because the disease has been wiped out in the wild. That's a case where everyone is a winner.

Polio was heading in the same direction until a certain asshat started lying about autism.

I am not against vaccinations at all I am just a little uneasy allowing the government mandate what we put in our bodies.
I suppose you're in favor of completely legalizing genetically altered designer babies? What's the difference between the government mandating that something go into our bodies and the government mandating that something stay out of our bodies?

What's your position on another incredible medical success story: water fluoridation?

I have heard pro choice people say that a woman needs to give consent the entire time she is pregnant, it is her right to have an abortion at any time if she declines consent anymore.
I've never heard a pro-choice person say any such thing. Up until viability, the foetus is undoubtedly part of the mother's body, and so the mother should be able to do as she wishes with it. That's not a consent issue, but an autonomy issue.

This is what I was getting at. We should have to give consent to whatever we put in our bodies. I am not sure if that is your view or not.
As I said above, the consent issue makes a mess of things.

Wait: no it doesn't. Your right to consent to behavior that is dangerous to me without getting my consent is non-existent.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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