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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 10/16/2005 : 23:35:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Trish
It does make criminals of those who participated in the degradations of prisoners of war in Abu Graib.
Do not forget Guantanamo Base! Non-combattants are still bing held without representation, deprived of both military and civilian rights.
Mab,
I'm not certain this is the fault of the individual Marine serving at Gitmo. I will say that the US may be in violation of the Geneva Conventions in this instance. But without reviewing the exact articles etc, I can not be certain. But the degredations seen at Abu Graib and the prisoners treatment at Gitmo I think are not the same. I have not seen any trully reliable proofs of abuses at Gitmo. Much of what has come out of Gitmo seems more ignorance of a religion not commonly understood among the US populace. It's my understanding that those misunderstandings are being worked on to clear them up. But there are no tales of the kind that were seen at Abu Graib. I'm certain that such abuses would still escape the confines of Gitmo, were they occuring. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 04:34:31 [Permalink]
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You're right about the anti-american thing, he either changed it or I dreamed it, but he did say that I think the U.S. is inherently evil, whatever that means. If someone would explain it to me, I might agree or disagree, I don't know.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 04:38:57 [Permalink]
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| I think, Trish, what you are saying about the U.S. not being subordinate is that the U.S. has held itself above international law. There is no court to prosecute it, because the U.S. itself recognizes no court. It can create kangaroo courts for others, but will not hold itself to the same standard. However, the U.S. is part of the U.N., and therefore has agreed to live by the charter. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 04:49:20 [Permalink]
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You know, I very well could have misunderstood what people are saying. I could have very well perceived some slights against me that were not there. I have seen no one say that they did not mean to attack me or insult me when I protested, so I only have to assume that this is the way one behaves here.
I'll gather that I'm wrong and apologize to all for my behavior if you see me as attacking you. It didn't start out that way and only began as a protest to what I saw as insulting behavior.
I started with a simple question, which people found it hard to answer.
The only answer that directly answered the question was that the military is not a democratic institution. This is not entirely true. Or, at least, is not supposed to be true in the U.S. Democracy has to do with the welfare of the people, and the U.S. military is supposed to be about the welfare of its soldiers as well as the mission of the leaders. We all know what happens when soldiers choose to follow orders to the letter, or on the other extreme, shoot officers.
If the U.S. allowed a mechanism whereby they were not above international law, then there would be a mechanism for troops and others to protest the violation of international law.
So, what we come down to again is that we do not consider the troops to be criminals because they are just as much victims of the system as are any other victims of U.S. aggression. And it seems many here would like to see them punished if they have the courage to disobey. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 09:28:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
The only answer that directly answered the question was that the military is not a democratic institution. This is not entirely true. Or, at least, is not supposed to be true in the U.S. Democracy has to do with the welfare of the people, and the U.S. military is supposed to be about the welfare of its soldiers as well as the mission of the leaders. We all know what happens when soldiers choose to follow orders to the letter, or on the other extreme, shoot officers.
Again, it is the solders job to follow orders to the letter. Bad orders as described in the Geneva Conventions are the exception. The order of command is, and must be the rule or we would not have an effective military. Having said that, solders can protest. They put themselves as risk doing that but then disobedience based on politics has often been a way to shed a bright light on certain problems. Willingly choosing jail can been seen as a legitimate form of political protest. But I cannot see a way around the risk of going to jail for not obeying orders. Again, it comes down to how the military must function to be effective.
quote:
Gorgo:
And it seems many here would like to see them punished if they have the courage to disobey.
It is not, and I am speaking for myself, that I want to see them punished. It is that they must be punished or order breaks down. And the military runs on order from the top down. It can be no other way. I applaud any solder with the courage to disobey an order on political grounds.
Disobedience may exact a personal price, as Gandhi taught us, but disobedience is a legitimate form of protest. And frankly, if there was no “music to face” it would not be a very affective form of protest…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 11:12:19 [Permalink]
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| Okay, but you are saying that soldiers can and should defy some orders, correct? So it is not the job of soldiers to obey each and every order, just each and every "lawful order" as I think the UCMJ is worded. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 16:56:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Okay, but you are saying that soldiers can and should defy some orders, correct? So it is not the job of soldiers to obey each and every order, just each and every "lawful order" as I think the UCMJ is worded.
Solders are asked to defy orders that violate the Geneva Conventions, and they are taught what constitutes an illegal order of that kind. (I had to ask Boron10 about that to make sure. Lucky for me he called from Pearl Harbor this weekend and I asked him about it. We will probably not be able to talk again for a couple of months.) It is their job to obey all other orders. (Unless the order is clearly insane. But it will be up to the solder to prove that it was.) If a solder disobeys a lawful order for political reasons, for example, the solder refuses an order based on his/her opinion that the war is illegal, the military will certainly not view that as okay. Nor should they. She/he will probably be prosecuted for doing that.
I'm saying that if a person wants to defy an order in protest, which would be, in my view, a legitimate form of protest, that person will have to face the consequences for doing that. I am not saying that I expect the troops to protest in this way. And I am certainly not saying that those who don't are doing anything wrong.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 22:37:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I think, Trish, what you are saying about the U.S. not being subordinate is that the U.S. has held itself above international law. There is no court to prosecute it, because the U.S. itself recognizes no court. It can create kangaroo courts for others, but will not hold itself to the same standard. However, the U.S. is part of the U.N., and therefore has agreed to live by the charter.
No Gorgo. The US is a sovereign nation. I've stated this before. Part of being sovereign means that there is no other governing body to which it must answer. This is true for all nations. In other words, the UN has only the power over a sovereign nation which that nation gives to it. It is not a world governement, only a forum in which nations can express their opinions with regard to the actions of a foreign government.
You Gorgo, give the UN a position that it does not have, that of world government. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 22:50:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
You Gorgo, give the UN a position that it does not have, that of world government.
He is under the mistaken impression that the UN charter is a ratified treaty, and therefore the "law of the land" under article six of the constitution.
Even after repeatedly being informed otherwise.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 08:52:07 [Permalink]
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| Yeah Dude I know. This is an old argument between us. It's been going on for nearly 4 years. We just keep missing each other. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 10:35:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
You Gorgo, give the UN a position that it does not have, that of world government.
All you are saying is that the U.S. considers itself above international law. It only uses the UN and international law to achieve its ends. When they get in its way, it ignores them. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 11:13:15 [Permalink]
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| 15 pages, Kil. Haven't seen Gez in a while. You mind doing the honors? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 12:06:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
15 pages, Kil. Haven't seen Gez in a while. You mind doing the honors?
Yes, the time has come.
As always, feel free to open a new thread if you wish to continue this conversation.
This thread is now locked due to length.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Topic Locked
