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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:47:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Dr.M
Yes abortion as contraception I want to see banned
And as you read the post, sex education INCLUDING abstinence. I fear you misread as well as selectively quoted. Could you please re-read what you bolded and note you did only chose what you wanted. No where did I advocate solely abstinence.
My point is that teaching abstinense is practically useless. Your wife excepted of course. There will be anomalies of course. Life is a long exercise in anomalies. Neither I nor my current girlfriend had penetrating sex before we met, however that fact was due to circumstance rather than any deliberate attempt. Am I better off for it? I don't think so. But this was a side track.
I wrote "practically useless". With that, I mean that kids will be kids. A few might actually choose abstinense, but I can't think of them as more than a minority. Not when the average debute age is closing on 15. There are 20 year-olds that still don't know what a concom looks like, much less know how to use it.
quote:
And you didn't say what situation unless you approve of abortion on demand no reason. Which is all I ask.
I thought I had already made my position clear:
At the woman's discression, on demand no reasons asked, until w28. After that on medical/health basis only.
Also, a woman may be severely traumatised by a rape. Denial and/or fear/shame etc. may keep her from reporting the rape. The same for even acknowleging her own pregnancy. This will delay the date she realises she actually needs the abortion. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:51:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Siberia
Crap, that's really sad
Yes, it is.
There was a study here, don't remember when, which pointed out most adopted children are Caucasian, male and female; then the black girls; then the black boys. Of course, god knows how many children born with defects are left. A friend of mine helps an orphanage; they had to buy a wheelchair for a little boy with cerebral paralisys. He's about seven, now, never adopted.
Quite sad indeed. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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nescafe
New Member
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:57:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
Dude:
quote:
The average life expectancy rate is based on live births only. Abortions (elective and spontaneous) are not included in that number which by volume would drastically reduce such a number.
Ahh yes, a good, very sad point. The average life expectancy is much lower, because we've murdered so many children.
Um, no. The vast majority of abortions are spontaneous aboortions -- some statistics state that approx. 78% of all conceptions fail -- to the best of my knowledge, these numbers do not include elective abortions. Considering a spontaneous abourtion to be the same as murder is highly misleading -- there is no intent.
A good rant here should include at least a bit of research. :) |
Insert witty saying here. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 20:12:42 [Permalink]
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Ricky asked:quote:
HalfMooner you keep on asking for Bible verses from verso, and I can't seem to find any reason what so ever why.
Mainly because I don't believe the Bible opposes abortion at all.
True, I couldn't care less, personally. But freedom of choice needs all the allies it can get, including religious people who are reasonable about the issue. It'd be nice to be able to prove that the non-fanatics have a better scriptural understanding than do some of the illiterate bible-thumpers. (I'm not calling anyone reading this "illiterate" for obvious logical reasons.) Besides, Christianity is supposedly a Bible-based religion. When some Christians make crazy societal demands, shouldn't they be expected to show where they got their ideas?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 20:13:51 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 22:04:39 [Permalink]
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To everyone using scriptural and theological strawman arguments against verso's stance on abortion - stop being idiots. And to everyone talking about spontaneous natural abortions as an argument against verso's stance, you are also in the wrong. Verso's comment about people also having heart attacks – so what – was dead-on. I wish people here would debate against only verso's actual (and indeed, secular) argument, which is that of the ethical slippery slope.
To verso:
From the American Heritage Dictionary's entry on murder:
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3. A flock of crows. See Synonyms at flock1.
Abortion is not murder because murder is required to be illegal. Pro-lifers who call it “murder” are simply using that term because it is emotionally loaded.
verso wrote: quote:
Yes ladies, apparently the government is going to start forcing you to have sex without contraception. Dark times are upon us.
On a serious note - comparing a woman's right to (not) have a baby to a person's right to live is laughable. But wait!... I forgot! It's not a human life till 7 months!
... or was that 3 months? Or... 3 years? My 4 month old son IS kind of an inconvenience right at the moment...
You fail to see how this is an issue of women's rights. The problem is that there is nothing like pregnancy that we can compare this issue to. I have heard anti-abortionists try to claim that it is akin to everything from genocide to medical testing on animals. But none of those examples, including yours of killing your son or killing a 17-year-old, really parallel the unique situation of having one undeveloped and newly conceived human being totally dependent on the body of an adult woman. A 17 year old, and even a newborn baby, can survive on its own physically. The mother can at that point give it up, and then child services will take responsibility. This is a hell of a lot better than what most tribal cultures do: often if a women can't take care of a new baby (usually because it was born too close to an older sibling) it is often socially acceptable to smother or abandon that new baby. Fortunately, science and complex social organization has provided an alternative to that. Maybe in the future we'll have more alternatives that will make abortion look barbarous. But for now, we deal with what we've got.
verso also wrote: quote:
we have the technology to know that there is a heartbeat and brain activity before quickening, so we have less excuse than any time in history to be murdering unborn children.
The fact that you later wrote that "zygote," "fetus" or whatever else you want to call it makes me wonder how much you actually know about human growth and development. I'm not going to explain to you what zygotes, embryos and fetuses are, you can look that up in an encyclopedia. First of all, a cow has a heartbeat and far more brain activity than an embryo (first trimester – when most abortions are performed), and we don't use that as a reason to outlaw killing cows for meat and leather. I don't know why the heartbeat is mentioned so often – heartbeats don't affect the embryo/fetus's experience in any special way. Could it be that socially the phrase “heartbeat” has a special psychological meaning, and THAT is why pro-lifers bring it up so often? As for brain activity, quality needs to be a consideration because otherwise the embryo/fetus isn't any m |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/23/2006 22:13:53 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 23:02:09 [Permalink]
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First, I do agree with most of what you wrote, above, marfknox.
marfknox stated: quote:
To everyone using scriptural and theological strawman arguments against verso's stance on abortion - stop being idiots.
I wasn't making any straw man arguments. I was asking for the source of verso's admitted religious motivations. That was a fair question, not a theological argument, pro or con. Meanwhile, if I ever see a real secular argument from verso, I will address it.
Further: quote:
Verso's comment about people also having heart attacks – so what – was dead-on.
More like dead on arrival. That statement makes no sense to me. It may indeed just be me, but I'm not scanning any meaning from that, sorry.
And:quote:
I wish people here would debate against only verso's actual (and indeed, secular) argument, which is that of the ethical slippery slope.
Here's why I think verso's "slippery slope" argument is a bogus argument, and not "secular" at all: It's mere a diversion from his real goal of banning all abortion, for all women, everywhere. He, and the anti-abortionists in general, would rather have us arguing about what week a fetus becomes a citizen, so we'll be so busy we won't notice that the government is forcing all pregnant women to carry even unimplanted fertilized ova to full term, including rape and incest victims (questions about which, significantly, he won't address). The "slope" straw man is just a trap for us to voluntarily slide down into, a rhetorical trick. It means nothing to the anti-abortionists, who already firmly define human life as being from conception, period.
Marfknox, none of us can with success simply tell the others how or what to argue about. We all may have somewhat differing views, and we will express them. We're not a very orderly bunch.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 23:09:59 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 23:47:36 [Permalink]
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Ricky asked: quote:
Has he ever stated or hinted at this goal? Or are you just speculating?
Speculating, of course, since verso explicitly refused to answer my question on that very point. Fairly sound, as speculation goes, though, as he's made clear his virulent anti-abortion stand, and he defines human life as starting at conception. Lacking his reply, it's not a great leap of logic to imagine that he probably agrees with the "mainstream" anti-abortionist agenda. I think verso is being sly about his goals.
Ricky said again:
quote:
verso isn't using religion to support his argument, so whether or not this comes from his religious viewpoint is irrelevant. He is making arguments about abortion, and you are trying to argue about whether or not the Bible supports abortions. That is a Red Herring if I ever saw one.
Show where I ever made a religious argument against, or for, anything. I may speculate that the bible probably says nothing against abortion, but I haven't claimed to actually know the answer. I'm not a Bible guy.
I've simply asked for the source of verso's stated religious belief on the subject. Especially since all anti-abortion arguments stem from religion, just as like ID does from Biblical creationism, how is this question forbidden? How is asking this a "red herring"? It's not as though I'm interrupting a great flow of secular argument from him. But sure, he doesn't have to answer, and hasn't. I accept that, but I will make personal assumptions from the lack of an answer.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 23:48:38 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 00:59:18 [Permalink]
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Ricky required: quote:
Show me in which post verso used religion in his arguments against abortion.
I don't have to. There aren't any such posts. I never claimed verso had made a single religious argument, though I do claim he's made no valid secular ones. He's just repeated his passionate opposition to abortion, and then threw in the "slippery slope" red herring as a distraction in lieu of a real argument.
I repeat, I was asking him for chapter and verse that underlay his admitted (but undefined) religious conviction concerning abortion. Though I consider this a very fair question, he didn't have to answer, and he didn't, and I accept that. I haven't continued trying to badger him further. If I now assume he's got nothing but blather from preachers to support his "religious" stand, you'll just have to accept that such is my opinion.
Ricky edited: quote:
Are you also saying that there are no non-theists who are against abortion? Funny, cause I had an agnostic friend who was.
Good point, sorry. I should have allowed for the possibility of bloody-minded, authoritarian, and/or patriarchal atheists and agnostics, too, within the anti-abortion ranks, though I've never met one. I should indeed have written that more carefully:
"Especially since most all anti-abortion arguments stem from are motivated by religion, just as like ID does from is motivated by Biblical creationism, how is this question forbidden?"
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/24/2006 01:59:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 06:02:12 [Permalink]
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...And the children shall lead us, for oft times they are far wiser than we...
And a hell of a lot smarter, and certainly more ethical than the sad, snivveling sacks of shit currently leading(?) this country. quote:
As the Bush administration continues to fund only abstinence-only sex education, American youth are taking comprehensive sex education into their own hands, RAW STORY has learned.
Programs favored by the administration often censor information about birth control and abortion completely. A December 2004 report commissioned by Representative Henry Waxman (D-California) found 11 out of 13 abstinence-only curricula examined to contain errors and distortions.
According to The Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit organization focused on sexual and reproductive health research, policy analysis and public education, there are currently three federal programs—Section 510 of the Social Security Act, the Adolescent Family Life Act and the Special Projects of Regional and National Significance program—dedicated to funding abstinence-only sex education. None are dedicated to funding comprehensive sex education, even though the latter has been shown more effective in delaying sexual activity in teens and encouraging wiser and safer choices when teens do engage in sexual activity.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 06:31:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Dr.M
Yes abortion as contraception I want to see banned
And what percentage of the abortions happen for this cause? And do remember that some women's situation change to the point where childbearing would be untenable. Also carve out the ones which are medically necessary. Please provide sources for your numbers. I don't think we are talking about many if any abortions in this class.
An abortion is quite a costly procedure. A pack of rubbers is fairly cheap. Add in the stress of the procedure, and you've got no upside to using abortion as birth control.
I'm thinking a few first timers, but no repeat business. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 06:32:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I repeat, I was asking him for chapter and verse that underlay his admitted (but undefined) religious conviction concerning abortion. Though I consider this a very fair question, he didn't have to answer, and he didn't, and I accept that. I haven't continued trying to badger him further. If I now assume he's got nothing but blather from preachers to support his "religious" stand, you'll just have to accept that such is my opinion.
Since Verso has claimed that his position is derived from logical deduction (and inference) rather than explicit chapter and verse in religious scripts, asking him for them is out of bounds.
HalfMooner, if you want to have biblical support for your side of the argument, according to the practice "is't your argument, show me your evidence", it looks like you will have to dive into the bible for a chapter-and-verse hunt. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 06:36:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
Dr. Mabuse:
I'm sorry, I'm just baffled.
Whether or not someone is deemed worthy of being kept alive is based strictly on the state of medicine.
Again... all I can say is "interesting."
HalfMooner:
I'm not ignoring you, I just can't take the time to continuously repeat things 3 or more times, while trying to sort through your melodramatic posts, the bulk of which are simply making assumptions about me, and calling names. Sorry.
If someone else demonstrates interest in the questions you are asking, I will take that as evidence that I have not clearly answered them, and I would be happy to do so then.
edit: removed a potentially overly-inflammatory remark.
OK, I am interested in your stance on unimplanted zygotes from fertility clinics. While the first missus and I were trying to concieve, we had to use a fertility clinic. As such, we produced 3 zygotes. Due to factors probably related to her age and condition, the zygotes had genetic markers for mongoloidism. We decided to not implant the zygotes and instructed the fertility clinic to destroy the zygotes.
Question: Does that make me someone who is guilty of murder for hire under your criteria?
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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