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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2006 : 06:12:29 [Permalink]
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| I've been waiting for the old "you won't understand until you believe"... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 07:04:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco...
I've been waiting for the old "you won't understand until you believe"...
So sorry, pleco, you're too late. He already did that song and dance, more or less, in this little sermon...quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
My response is to humble yourself and repent to God for any wrongdoings you've done in your life. It's not necessary for you to understand God or the Bible completely at this time. But Christians believe if you repent and are sincere God will reveal Himself to you over time and you'll have your answer. Don't put faith in my answers. Put faith in the answers God will reveal to you over time. Its not going to be something you can see or even completely explain to others, but you'll believe its true, and that's all that's really important anyway.
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 07:10:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
If your not seeking a definition than why take the time to give one.
Okay, it may be that you have a serious problem with reading comprehension. That possibility is supported by the fact that you appear to have completely misunderstood so many of the questions and comments which have been posted here. Everyone else involved in the discussion seems to understand each other perfectly well. On the other hand, you did indicate many pages ago that you think Christianity is for stupid people, and you have provided much evidence for the possibility that you are just too stupid to understand the conversation.
I said... I'm asking you to provide your definition of the terms you're using in this discussion. Obviously, well, to anyone who is moderately sane with reading comprehension skills above that of about a ten year old, I wanted your definition of your "True Supreme God", your definition, as opposed to simply an ambiguous collection of dictionary definitions of the individual words. But for some reason you're unable or unwilling to define your god, so continuing to ask you seems likely to be fruitless.
It does beg the question(s), however... Do you have some kind of known reading disability? Is English not your first language? Do you suffer from a mental illness which might prevent you from rationally discussing the topics of this conversation? Are you just a troll intentionally saying stupid sounding things and intentionally ignoring issues when others ask you to address them? Or, as has been suggested before and the option which appears most likely to be correct, do you simply lack the moral courage and integrity to engage in an honest discussion about your superstitious beliefs?
And, if your apparent lack of ability to communicate effectively is just the result of your being a liar, how do you make it right in your mind that you must resort to such dishonesty in order to support your superstition? Does your terrorist god approve of you lying to defend its existence? Is there somewhere in your book of fables where it says it's okay for you to knowingly bear false witness?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 08:31:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The bible talks of false prophets snd false Messiahs. If a person or church produces much good fruit you can assume they are closer to God than those that produce bad fruit. As Christ said, those branches that produce bad fruit will be cut from the tree, gathered together, and thrown into the fire. Those that produce good fruit will be pruned so that they may produce even more good fruit.
What practical applications does this have, beside for the gardener?
I mean, how do you prune a congregation?
After nearly 2000 years, the Catholic Church is still in business, and the largest Christian congregation in America.
Pruning is one of the current Pope's favorite expressions. In fact he wants to prune the Catholic church. Its very appropriate.
You didn't answer any my questions.
Can you do anything other than dodging?
I feel like I'm playing Whack-a-mole. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/26/2006 08:37:07 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 08:40:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Can you do anything other than dodging?
I feel like I'm playing Whack-a-mole.
Good call... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 12:47:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by pleco...
I've been waiting for the old "you won't understand until you believe"...
So sorry, pleco, you're too late. He already did that song and dance, more or less, http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6748&whichpage=9#101709in this little sermon[/url
Doh! I stand corrected...thankie! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 04:31:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Ok. How do you know this is reliable based upon your statement that the bible's human authors were unreliable scribes? Or is this just another, later, human interpretation? Potentially heaping imperfect interpretation upon imperfect content.
edited to add the last sentence
I've looked at all the evidence; intellectual evidence + empiricle evidence + historical evidence + gut feeling + faith. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 04:51:43 [Permalink]
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| Of course you have. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 05:23:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Why wasn't the Holy Spirit active when Bible was compiled? If He had removed all inconsistancies during compilation, then much grif worldwide through history would have been avoided. There wouldn't be so many different protestant congregations, or even a difference between Catholics and Protestants.
The Holy Spirit may inform me of a different interpretation that He discloses to you. Which Holy Spirit interpretation is right? Mine or yours?
The Holy Spirit was active, but man still had sin in him. Your never going to be able to receive all the Holy Spirit has for you as long as there is sin in your life... Some might say rudeness is a sin.
Also a student might go to every class and listen to every word of the teacher, but that student usually gets things wrong on the test. Does that mean the teacher was wrong. No it just shows the imperfection of the student. The writers of the Bible were imperfect people just like students are imperfect... Christ and The Holy Spirit (the teachers) gave a perfect message. But the receivers of that message were not perfect just like students are not perfect. But even if they didn't get a perfect score their report card (the Bible) was the greatest seller in the history of mankind. And I believe there is a reason it is the greatest seller. Because it is closer to God and Ultimate Truth than any other book in history If you have anything better to offer mankind your welcome to submit a manuscript to publishers. Its easy to criticise, Its harder to create. The Bible will still be a best seller long after were all gone.
Also I disagree with your point on inconsistencies. There were no inconsistencies with the 10 commandments; and Moses' followers constantly disobeyed them... Can you imagine how better the world would be if people just followed the simple consistent 10 commandments. There would be no stealing, no lying, no murder, no jealousy etc. Life would be incredible. But humans, because of their sinful nature, would not follow them. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/27/2006 06:12:10 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 06:32:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Can you imagine how better the world would be if people just followed the simple consistent 10 commandments. There would be no stealing, no lying, no murder, no jealousy etc. Life would be incredible.
No freedom of or from religion, no free speech, no ambitions....
But then without any lying there would not be any creationist...
I'll think I'd settle for the golden rule. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 07:14:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
There were no inconsistencies with the 10 commandments
The first commandment is to worship God. So which one was that again? And did you provide any proof for said deity, or any attributes - you know like Geemack and other have asked for over and over and over again?
And there obviously are inconsitencies in the bible. Your hand wave is noted. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/27/2006 07:18:31 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 08:21:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Ok. How do you know this is reliable based upon your statement that the bible's human authors were unreliable scribes? Or is this just another, later, human interpretation? Potentially heaping imperfect interpretation upon imperfect content.
edited to add the last sentence
I've looked at all the evidence; intellectual evidence + empiricle evidence + historical evidence + gut feeling + faith.
And that evidence would be ??? You have already admitted that the books of the Bible were the work imperfect human authors. So the Bible as evidence should be considered unreliable since anything that we believe about its content is subject to the interpretation of other imperfect humans. Therefore, adding imperfect interpretation upon imperfect content.
GK Paul, at some point you, personally, need to address the inconsistencies in your own thought processes. You admit that the Bible is unreliable due to its imperfect human authors, and yet you rely upon the Bibles content as evidence of your God.
It might be time for you to put your shovel down. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 08:32:59 [Permalink]
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GK Paul wrote: quote:
Also a student might go to every class and listen to every word of the teacher, but that student usually gets things wrong on the test. Does that mean the teacher was wrong. No it just shows the imperfection of the student.
Go rent the movie "Stand and Deliver" (based on a true story) and tell us that again.
Your analogy here is totally flawed. As a teacher I am well aware that the quality of teacher does matter a great deal. And not just the quality of the teacher from some objective scale, but how well that teacher understands how to get through to any individual student. I had a math teacher in HS who I didn't understand at all, and I got Cs and Ds in her class, while my friend Jesse got As. The next year we were in another math class and that teacher's teaching style was totally different. With great happiness and relief, I found that I could understand her lectures, and I started getting As and Bs. But my friend Jesse grew frustrated and bored with her lessons and his grades fell.
Clearly a perfect God would know how to get through to each and every individual human. If such a powerful God were real and he wanted humans to have faith, there would be so such thing as doubt. And yet, religious doubt is older than Christianity, and grows stronger in the face of greater education. From a rational point of view, if there is a God, he sure as heck doesn't care one way or another whether people have religious faith or not.
Religion is man-made. Religions are political. Those which demand blind submission of their adherents and warns of some horrible cosmic punishment for heretics have nothing to do with the will of some god, and everything to do with the greed-for-power of their leaders.
Wake up. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 12:18:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
There were no inconsistencies with the 10 commandments
The first commandment is to worship God. So which one was that again? And did you provide any proof for said deity, or any attributes - you know like Geemack and other have asked for over and over and over again?
And there obviously are inconsitencies in the bible. Your hand wave is noted.
Scientists and people in this forum talk of the Big Bang. Show me proof it happened. Both require faith, but as I said before, I believe the Big Bang requires more faith. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 12:29:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
GK Paul wrote: quote:
Also a student might go to every class and listen to every word of the teacher, but that student usually gets things wrong on the test. Does that mean the teacher was wrong. No it just shows the imperfection of the student.
Go rent the movie "Stand and Deliver" (based on a true story) and tell us that again.
Your analogy here is totally flawed. As a teacher I am well aware that the quality of teacher does matter a great deal. And not just the quality of the teacher from some objective scale, but how well that teacher understands how to get through to any individual student. I had a math teacher in HS who I didn't understand at all, and I got Cs and Ds in her class, while my friend Jesse got As. The next year we were in another math class and that teacher's teaching style was totally different. With great happiness and relief, I found that I could understand her lectures, and I started getting As and Bs. But my friend Jesse grew frustrated and bored with her lessons and his grades fell.
Clearly a perfect God would know how to get through to each and every individual human. If such a powerful God were real and he wanted humans to have faith, there would be so such thing as doubt. And yet, religious doubt is older than Christianity, and grows stronger in the face of greater education. From a rational point of view, if there is a God, he sure as heck doesn't care one way or another whether people have religious faith or not.
Religion is man-made. Religions are political. Those which demand blind submission of their adherents and warns of some horrible cosmic punishment for heretics have nothing to do with the will of some god, and everything to do with the greed-for-power of their leaders.
Wake up.
Your statement that my analogy is "totally flawed" is rude. So I won't take the time to respond. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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