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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  19:47:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Not a bit, Dave. Conclude what you like. If it makes you feel better to nit pick common english phrases and to purposefully misinterpret me, then have at it.
quote:
How could I possibly misinterpret "I don't care if you think any claim I've made is true?"


I'm not sure; but I have confidence you'll manage somehow!


No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  19:56:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

I'm not sure; but I have confidence you'll manage somehow!
More irony from Mr. All-16-floors-have-to-impact-at-the-same-time. Nice.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  21:06:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
I am making assumptions about Dave's motivations. But one not need be a mind reader to make valid assumptions on his behavior. Dave is pretty text-book. Not a lot of mystery or complexity there. I have an advanced degree in statistics, research methods and psychology (as trogdor or the U of Illinois if you want validation). So while dave might seem complex to you, he is as transparent as lead crystal to me. Dave, of course will deny it to save face, but he knows I'm right.


Okay dokey. Since you have an advanced degree in psychology, what would you call a person who manifests these symptoms?

“suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her”

“is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her”

“reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events”

“persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries or slights”

“perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counter attack”

You have made the suggestion of a 911 conspiracy along the lines that our government may have been behind the felling of the World Trade Center, and without sufficient evidence you continue offer this suggestion as plausible. You will not offer any evidence of your own to back up this claim. Behavior is “overdetermined” but could it be that you are afraid that your evidence could be attacked---used against you? You have definitely read a hidden and threatening message into the benign event of the closing of a thread, and you continue to hold a grudge about it, even though it has been pointed out numerous times that it was not done “at” you, but is a SFN policy. And your response to this perceived attack is to react in counter attack by suggesting that there might be some psychological disturbance that has led to the closing of the thread. Hmmm, perhaps. But it isn't Dave's.

Not one to bandy about psychological diagnoses, directly or passively, (I have too much respect for the field of psychology to do that) I will leave this one to you. What would you say about a person who has behaved in this way?


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  21:48:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil


quote:
ergo123:
I am making assumptions about Dave's motivations. But one not need be a mind reader to make valid assumptions on his behavior. Dave is pretty text-book. Not a lot of mystery or complexity there. I have an advanced degree in statistics, research methods and psychology (as trogdor or the U of Illinois if you want validation). So while dave might seem complex to you, he is as transparent as lead crystal to me. Dave, of course will deny it to save face, but he knows I'm right.


quote:
Okay dokey. Since you have an advanced degree in psychology, what would you call a person who manifests these symptoms?

“suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her”

“is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her”

“reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events”

“persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries or slights”

“perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counter attack”


Sounds like Dave W., to me. Check out his behavior on my "Just to be clear" thread...

quote:
You have made the suggestion of a 911 conspiracy along the lines that our government may have been behind the felling of the World Trade Center, and without sufficient evidence you continue offer this suggestion as plausible.


It's my working theory. I am open to evidence for and against this theory. But I am taking a step-by-step approach to this whole issue. Looking to first amass evidence in support of the official conspiracy theory of the events of 9-11-01. If the evidence I collect convinces me that the official conspiracy theory is the most likely to have occurred, it will become my working theory until I find an alternative that is more likely. The difference between me and many of you here, is the I'll keep looking

quote:
You will not offer any evidence of your own to back up this claim. Behavior is “overdetermined” but could it be that you are afraid that your evidence could be attacked---used against you?


No. As I pointed out pages ago, I am not interested in exploring my theory now. You are right that I don't yet have much evidence to support it. That's why I'm focusing first on the official conspiracy theory. If I am satisfied with the official conspiracy theory, it will become my working theory--but I will pursue alternative theories with the same vigor and scrutiny as I have the official conspiracy theory thus far. That's the way I approach problems. Step-by-step. One thing at a time. In a focused effort. I guess some here can't live with an approach that differs from their own.. But that's their loss. I always find I learn something when I meet someone who takes an approach different from my own.


No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  22:20:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
I won't embarrass Dave by replying to your last question.

I feel that you are projecting. There is something about Dave's responses that is very activating for you. You might want to explore that a bit…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  22:53:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
ergo123:
I won't embarrass Dave by replying to your last question.

I feel that you are projecting. There is something about Dave's responses that is very activating for you. You might want to explore that a bit…




I have. Dave reminds me of what I was like 25 - 30 years ago. I feel embarrassed and sorry for him at the same time as he is experiencing in his 40s what I experienced in my late teens and early 20s.

As you probably know, Dave suffers from psoriasis--which has been shown to be linked to the psychological factors of anxiety and stress. One way Dave probably tries to reduce his stress and anxiety levels is to over-intellectualize situations--to distance himself from a situation's emotional content and to convince himself that he has all these stressful and anxiety-evoking situations under control.

Unfortunately, this emotional distancing only acts to heighten his subconscious level of anxiety. Dave is so outwardly controlled that this subconscious anxiety manifests itself in the form of his psoriasis.

I guess it makes sense that this issue would be a tough one for Dave as the implications of the official conspiracy theory not being true are very anxiety-laden. Given that, I would expect Dave to throw everything he's got into hijacking my threads from their intended purpose. And we have, of course, seen this on all 3 of the threads I started--the locking of the 1st thread aside.

Hopefully Dave can face his anxiety and deal with it directly--although I doubt he will be able to here if he is not addressing his anxiety with medication and/or talk-therapy. And he certainly won't be able to take any advice from me; because to him, I am the personification of his anxiety.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  23:20:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

As you probably know, Dave suffers from psoriasis--which has been shown to be linked to the psychological factors of anxiety and stress.
That's funny as hell.
quote:
One way Dave probably tries to reduce his stress and anxiety levels is to over-intellectualize situations--to distance himself from a situation's emotional content and to convince himself that he has all these stressful and anxiety-evoking situations under control.
That's even funnier.
quote:
Dave is so outwardly controlled that this subconscious anxiety manifests itself in the form of his psoriasis.
Damn, I nearly pissed myself laughing at that one.
quote:
I guess it makes sense that this issue would be a tough one for Dave as the implications of the official conspiracy theory not being true are very anxiety-laden.
Now you're just back to projecting your own psychological disturbances on me, since a government cover-up of their own bad deeds is just what I would expect from this administration.
quote:
Given that, I would expect Dave to throw everything he's got into hijacking my threads from their intended purpose. And we have, of course, seen this on all 3 of the threads I started--the locking of the 1st thread aside.
Wow, I did all that? Oh, you're just forgetting many other hijack contributors in your focus on little ol' me.
quote:
And he certainly won't be able to take any advice from me; because to him, I am the personification of his anxiety.
Not much ego in you, is there?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  23:33:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
Dave reminds me of what I was like 25 - 30 years ago. I feel embarrassed and sorry for him at the same time as he is experiencing in his 40s what I experienced in my late teens and early 20s.

It must be interesting for you to think about what you were like 25-30 years ago. What does it feel like for you to experience yourself in this way, as you look back? You mention feeling embarrassed for Dave because he reminds you of yourself. How does it feel to feel embarrassed and sorry for your younger self?
quote:
ergo123:
One way Dave probably tries to reduce his stress and anxiety levels is to over-intellectualize situations--to distance himself from a situation's emotional content and to convince himself that he has all these stressful and anxiety-evoking situations under control.

Is this the part of Dave that reminds you of yourself? Do you feel that you might over-intellectualize in order to distance yourself? Are you saying here that posting about this conspiracy issue is an anxiety-evoking situation for you and studying it in this manner helps you to distance yourself from the emotional content so that you may remain under control?

You talk about anxiety a lot. What is anxiety like for you?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  02:46:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
Those are interesting questions. I'll think about them--it's been a long time since I was in my 20s. But I'll get back to you.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  06:41:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Looks like we will learn the truth about 9/11 this wednesday.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  07:25:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
You are partially correct. I am making assumptions about Dave's motivations. But one not need be a mind reader to make valid assumptions on his behavior.


No, you could be a really good psychoanalyst. Or you could be a good friend. I've known Dave on this forum for several years now, and my perception of him does not match your perception.
I consider your antagonistic stance toward him to make you more unobjective than my friendship to him makes me.

quote:
Dave is pretty text-book.


Really? Strange that the resident psychologist on the board hasn't mentioned it. After all, she'd been here for years too.

quote:

I object, your honor... oh, wait, we aren't in court are we... You are correct in that dave's claim is a positive statement. It is an incomplete statement, but a positive one. But as I've pointed out, behavior is overdetermined. Let me know if you don't know what that means and I'll explain it to you.
Please do, and while you're at it, elaborate on "incomplete statement".

quote:

quote:
My evidence,
#1: Thread locked my Dr. Mabuse

#2: Thread locked by Dave_W.

#3: Thread locked by Kil.

#4: Thread locked by Kil. (also see moderator Valiant Dancer's message about the absent moderator Gezzam prior to the lock)

#5: Thread locked by Cuneiformist.

These are but a few examples of locked threads.

There are instances where the moderator in charge didn't have the time to lock the thread on time, and those managed to progress to page 16.


Didn't have the time or wanted them to go on a bit longer so didn't make the time...?
Didn't have the time.
We allow for discussions to go on after a thread is closed, in new threads. You didn't even follow any of the links to examine the evidence did you? The evidence is right before your eyes, but you seem unable to recognise or interpret it.
The first linked thread that was locked my me, just finished its 10th instance, so the subject has had its threads locked 9 times before, and still raged on (it's now nearing the closing limit for the 12th time).
quote:
By the way, are you a mind reader?
I can read my own mind, I know my own thoughts. That's why I know why I closed the "Surface of the Sun"-thread.

quote:
Because only a mind reader would know the thoughts of the moderator as to when they locked a given thread.


Well, partially true.
You can make a good guess from what the moderators say. In my evidence link #4, we have the discussion:
Valiant Dancer: "15 pages, Kil. Haven't seen Gez ..." (Gez is Gezzam, one of the moderators. //Mabuse's note) "...in a while. You mind doing the honors?"
Kil: "Yes, the time has come.
As always, feel free to open a new thread if you wish to continue this conversation.
This thread is now locked due to length."


Reading this conversation makes it pretty obvious what the moderators were thinking.

You know, there is a conspiracy among the moderators to close the thread once they reach a certain limit. We have had virtual meeting where we decided to close threads around page 15. Dave has even provided you with one of the good reasons for why we decided to make it so.

The fact that the threads are not always closed at precisely the last post of the 15th page is due to the fact that we all have a life outside the board. We do not monitor the board 24/7. For instance, I'm the moderator of the Astronomy section, but I'm in a different time zone. GMT+2. That means when you have your entire afternoon and evening to post to a thread filling it up past the 15th page, I'm busy sleeping.

quote:

Regardless, you seem to have a lot of time on your hands!


No, I'm just wasting too much of my valuable time on you, neglecting other stuff.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  08:48:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse


quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
You are partially correct. I am making assumptions about Dave's motivations. But one not need be a mind reader to make valid assumptions on his behavior.


quote:
No, you could be a really good psychoanalyst. Or you could be a good friend. I've known Dave on this forum for several years now, and my perception of him does not match your perception.
I consider your antagonistic stance toward him to make you more unobjective than my friendship to him makes me.


And you are telling me this because...?

quote:

I object, your honor... oh, wait, we aren't in court are we... You are correct in that dave's claim is a positive statement. It is an incomplete statement, but a positive one. But as I've pointed out, behavior is overdetermined. Let me know if you don't know what that means and I'll explain it to you.
quote:
Please do, and while you're at it, elaborate on "incomplete statement".


"Incomplete statement" and "overdetermined behavior" are linked, so I'm glad you want info on both.

Behavior is generally overdetermined. That means that there is generally more than one determinant (or reason) why anyone does any particular thing. For example: I would bet you could come up for more than one reason why you bought your motorcycle. You probably had several bikes to choose from. And you could have purchased a car. So, if someone asked you "why did you buy that morotcycle," while you might state one reason, more existed when you bought it. Everything we choose to do we do for at least one--but usually more than one--reason. This makes our behavior overdetermined. Eliminate one reason for doing a given behavior and we likely have others that lead us to do the same behavior. It is, of course, social convention to not list every reason why we do a particular thing--likely because the list would be so long as to bore people, and frequently we are interested in only the major mtivating factors in a particular decision.

Incomplete statement: So when dave said something like 'i locked the thread because it had hit 15 pages,' it could easily have been a true statement (I cannot read his mind, so I don't know if he was lying or telling the truth). But it was an incomplete statement because he didn't list all the reasons why he locked it at the particular time he did so.

quote:

We allow for discussions to go on after a thread is closed, in new threads. You didn't even follow any of the links to examine the evidence did you? The evidence is right before your eyes, but you seem unable to recognise or interpret it.


No, I didn't. But only because I believed dave when he said it was a policy of the forum. I had been wondering whether there was such a limit on threads. It's not an uncommon practice on sites like this.

quote:
By the way, are you a mind reader Because only a mind reader would know the thoughts of the moderator as to when they locked a given thread.


quote:
Well, partially true.
You can make a good guess from what the moderators say.


But is a good guess the same as knowing? Not in my experience. Especially when you consider the above regarding overdetermination and incomplete statements of motivation.

quote:

Regardless, you seem to have a lot of time on your hands!

quote:

No, I'm just wasting too much of my valuable time on you, neglecting other stuff.



And why would you do that!

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  09:15:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
And why would you do that!


Because I find these threads fascinating in the same way as the site of a traffic accident. I know I shouldn't look when I drive past, but then I can't help myself. I suppose it's my fascination for gory stuff that make me do it.
I'm sure you have a profound psychological insight for my behaviour.
Reading through your latest answers, I also starting to realise why you have such a hard time considering scientific reports and theories, and especially your choice to label the 9/11 Commission Report "a conspiracy theory".

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  09:40:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Because I find these threads fascinating in the same way as the site of a traffic accident. I know I shouldn't look when I drive past, but then I can't help myself. I suppose it's my fascination for gory stuff that make me do it.



Traffic accident does not even begin to describe this thread. More like nuclear explosion. Those are fascinating too.

Ergo has no point at all. He is just rambling and attempting character assassination. He is yet to show why the NIST report deserves skepticism (especially why it would deserve any more skepticism than anything else). He has provided no evidence to support his claim. He has rejected all evidence against his claim without warrant. He has concocted this paranoid idea that the government with its infinite money and power (and cigars to smoke menacingly) has concocted an elaborate conspiracy that sweeps through all federal agencies. Why does he believe this? He will not say. Why does he feel the government is out to get him? He does not say. Why can he not accept that there are and were in fact terrorist plots against America? He does not say. In fact, he does not say anything that proves or supports anything he believes. He just speculates and criticizes saying that the NIST report should have considered all possibilities for the collapse however fanciful. Even though it has already been shown that the NIST report did allow for the crazy conspiracy claims and they were sufficiently ruled out.

Should I consider that pixies hold me fast to the Earth and generate gravity? Is that a plausible theory of gravity? Maybe Ergo would accept and examine that claim but a good skeptic would spend his time following the evidence rather than insane speculations.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  09:56:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse


quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
And why would you do that!


quote:
Because I find these threads fascinating in the same way as the site of a traffic accident. I know I shouldn't look when I drive past, but then I can't help myself. I suppose it's my fascination for gory stuff that make me do it.
I'm sure you have a profound psychological insight for my behaviour.


Wow. That is kind of sick. I make it a point not to look at accident scenes. I think it is more respectful to those involved not to look. Yes, well your disclosure for a fascination of gory stuff is revealing.


quote:
Reading through your latest answers, I also starting to realise why you have such a hard time considering scientific reports and theories, and especially your choice to label the 9/11 Commission Report "a conspiracy theory".


The official story is a theory that is based on a conspiracy...


No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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