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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 07:34:24 [Permalink]
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GK Paul said:
quote:
If it was a "direct copy" why did the pagans bother to leave their own religions. The Christians had something different and better (The Holy Spirit) and I have to believe the pagans felt it.
Yeah, and no christian ever left for another religion (or no religion) 
Oh wait, they probably weren't "real" christians anyway, and if it isn't in the bible, it didn't happen. Right? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 12/10/2006 07:37:55 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2006 : 10:11:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by moakleyquote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well, I don't have a lot of time right now, but Paul and Peter (the apostle) actually met and worked together for 2 weeks. This was after the resurrection of course. Their meeting is somewhere in the book of Acts. I'll look it up when I get the chance.
Do you have a source independent of the product being sold?
When it comes to Peter, the source is always the same quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Petrus:
Peter's life story relies primarily on the New Testament, since there are no other contemporary accounts of his life or death, or even of his existence.
Yes, and if you find the testimony of any witness to be suspect, then all of this witness testimony should be considered suspect unless it can be corroborated by an independent source. My question was not a fair one. GK Paul has already bought the product. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 14:19:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Actually GK, it is not certain how christinity spread and Acts is not a reliable source of history. We are sure that there were christians to do the spreading but it was spread more because of it being a direct copy of the other pagan religions than the work of any historical saints.
If it was a "direct copy" why did the pagans bother to leave their own religions. The Christians had something different and better (The Holy Spirit) and I have to believe the pagans felt it.
They didn't leave. They just added more to it and eventually got christianity. It was the same religion dude. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 14:21:24 [Permalink]
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| GK I would like to take a moment and direct to a wonderful source of historical data. The library. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 14:26:36 [Permalink]
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| The real difference between the already existing pagan myths was exclusivity. The Pagans picked and choosed from the pagan ideas, but christianity created a religion that incorporated all of the ideas, and said "now believe all of this or go to hell." It is pretty easy to add a belief, not so easy to change one or abandon one, so the Christian myth won. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 05:37:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
The real difference between the already existing pagan myths was exclusivity. The Pagans picked and choosed from the pagan ideas, but christianity created a religion that incorporated all of the ideas, and said "now believe all of this or go to hell." It is pretty easy to add a belief, not so easy to change one or abandon one, so the Christian myth won.
This reminds me of two religions practiced in Brazil, the umbanda and the candomblé, both mixing Catholic traditions and the African religions. Apparently the slaves found much easier to add saints to their old pantheon than simply abandon said old pantheon... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 06:59:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Actually GK, it is not certain how christinity spread and Acts is not a reliable source of history. We are sure that there were christians to do the spreading but it was spread more because of it being a direct copy of the other pagan religions than the work of any historical saints.
If it was a "direct copy" why did the pagans bother to leave their own religions. The Christians had something different and better (The Holy Spirit) and I have to believe the pagans felt it.
Here's my current understanding of this (I can dig up refrences if needed):
Rome at that time was undergoing something of a spiritual crisis. While belief in the old gods remmained strong in the countryside, it on the wane in the cities and the people there were looking for something to replace it. To them, paying homage to the Roman gods was seen as nothing more than a pledge of allegiance to the state, rather than a statement of belief. (Its interesting that when Christianity finally did take over and outlaw all other religions, it coined the word 'pagan' to refer to the hold-outs, the word being derived from the same root word from which we get 'peasant'.)
However, the Romans still revered ancient knowledge, believing that any major truths would have already been discovered by someone, somewhere. Savior religions, like Mithras, were popular. Mithraism was tied into the ancient Zoroastrian beliefs of Persia.
Early christianity had a variety of expressions, many of which tied in ancient Jewish beliefs with the Helenistic ideas of a savior god. One of these believed in a Jesus Christ who had actually lived and walked the earth, not just a spiritual one. This church eventually won out over the other "Jesus Christ" churches. Its main strengths was that it was closely associated with the ancient Jewish tradidions of the Bible, and did not require circumcision. (That last one was pretty important if it was to catch on.) Other christianities rejected the "Old Testement", or required circumcision, or other things I can't remember at the moment.
By the late second century, it had established itself as THE Christianity. Even so, it didn't rapidly win over the hearts and minds of the Romans. It just muddled along for a century or so until it was championed by Constantine. Thats when it took off. Eventually it was declared the state religion, and shortly thereafter it outlawed all other religions. Still, it still took some heavy-handed tactics by the state over the next few centuries to totally eliminate the "pagan" religions.
So the key to Christianity's success seems to be Constantine. Without him, who knows?
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/11/2006 : 07:43:11 [Permalink]
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Interesting guy, this Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus. quote:
(February 27, 272–May 22, 337), commonly known as Constantine I, Constantine the Great, or (among Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic[2] Christians) Saint Constantine, was a Roman Emperor, proclaimed Augustus by his troops on July 25, 306 and who ruled an ever-growing portion of the Roman Empire until his death.
Constantine is best remembered in modern times for the Edict of Milan in 313, which fully legalized Christianity in the Empire, for the first time, and the Council of Nicaea in 325; these actions are considered major factors in the spreading of the Christian religion. His reputation as the "first Christian Emperor" has been promulgated by historians from Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea to the present day, although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith. This debate stems from his continued support for pagan deities and the fact that he was baptized very close to his death.[3]
Had a pretty good honk on him, didn't he?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 05:22:27 [Permalink]
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Here's an author who is very critical of the book. From what I understand he is also critical of Christianity, so you know he is an unbiased source.
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm
I have one question though. At the end of the review he says, "In Atwill's hands, everything means everything else. And, in the end, you know what that means." I'm kind of curious what he meant by that. Did he mean he thought Atwill was mentally ill or what. I'm really not sure what he meant by that. If anybody knows, let me know. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/20/2006 05:31:28 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 06:09:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
From what I understand he is also critical of Christianity, so you know he is an unbiased source.
Um, no, that does not necessarily mean the Rev. Price is unbiased at all. What makes you say things like that?
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/bio.htm |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 12/20/2006 06:11:21 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 06:13:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by plecoquote:
Originally claimed by the village idiot
From what I understand he is also critical of Christianity, so you know he is an unbiased source.
Um, no, that does not necessarily mean the Rev. Price is unbiased at all. What makes you say things like that?
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/bio.htm
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 07:12:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Here's an author who is very critical of the book. From what I understand he is also critical of Christianity, so you know he is an unbiased source.
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm
I have one question though. At the end of the review he says, "In Atwill's hands, everything means everything else. And, in the end, you know what that means." I'm kind of curious what he meant by that. Did he mean he thought Atwill was mentally ill or what. I'm really not sure what he meant by that. If anybody knows, let me know.
Here's a virtual towel. You still have some egg on your face. By the way you might as well try to learn more about who ever you reference. You can bet an SFN member will. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 19:34:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
From what I understand he is also critical of Christianity, so you know he is an unbiased source.
Um, no, that does not necessarily mean the Rev. Price is unbiased at all. What makes you say things like that?
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/bio.htm
Well, I usually don't read Dave W. posts, but his post on page 1 of this forum was so short and had my name in Bold letters - so I looked at it. Price's critique of the book of Acts as toilet tissue made me think he was critical of Christianity. And do you have any idea what Price meant in the last sentence of his review of Caesar's Messiah. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/20/2006 19:37:05 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2006 : 19:46:44 [Permalink]
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I only posted on page one because leonofno missed the fact that you'd already cited Robert Price in the other thread, GK Paul. You brought up Price, not me. But after I reminded leonofno about your earlier citation, he said,quote:
Its a wonder that any New Testament believing Christian would enlist Robert Price to help support their side. Did he even read WHY Price thinks Atwell is wrong?
That "he" refers to you, GK Paul.
Did you? Did you read why Price thinks Atwell is wrong?
I also think it's amusing that you added the word "toilet" to this:quote:
contemporary studies of Acts are increasingly inclined to treat the narrative as a tissue of second-century fictions and legends
Not all tissue is for the toilet. Ask any Kleenex employee.
Anyone who's not on GK Paul's "I can't hear you!" ignore list is free to copy-and-paste this post to see if GK Paul will answer any of the points. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 15:56:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I only posted on page one because leonofno missed the fact that you'd already cited Robert Price in the other thread, GK Paul. You brought up Price, not me. But after I reminded leonofno about your earlier citation, he said,quote:
Its a wonder that any New Testament believing Christian would enlist Robert Price to help support their side. Did he even read WHY Price thinks Atwell is wrong?
That "he" refers to you, GK Paul.
Did you? Did you read why Price thinks Atwell is wrong?
I also think it's amusing that you added the word "toilet" to this:quote:
contemporary studies of Acts are increasingly inclined to treat the narrative as a tissue of second-century fictions and legends
Not all tissue is for the toilet. Ask any Kleenex employee.
Anyone who's not on GK Paul's "I can't hear you!" ignore list is free to copy-and-paste this post to see if GK Paul will answer any of the points.
Well, since I used your name in that post, I guess I'm obligated to reply. Yes, I did misread the quote, but Price's statement about Acts is still very critical of the Bible (Acts). I, being a Christian, certainly don't agree with his degrading of Acts.
Making such critical statements about a book of the Bible could get you kicked out of many churches which is why I believe Price could be considered an unbiased critic of Caesar's Messiah.
As far as why Price thinks Atwill is wrong, Price states that he believes Atwills story is "absurd". He states that the so called elaborate joke that the Romans and Josephus were trying to pull, is not on the reader, but "Rather the joke is on Atwill, whose great learning has apparantly driven him mad." |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/21/2006 16:09:19 |
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Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill
