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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 10/29/2006 : 11:25:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree there no reliable evidence which complies with the great expectations of regular medicine. You might say then it is Jomanda is wrong, but you might also think that it is about these great expectations. Because how can one expect from alternative medicine / Jomanda to comply with these expectations, when this in reality is not and never possible ? Like demanding from a 'green' car, to act 'red' ?
The expectation for any medical treatment is to rid the afflicted of the disease, or if that is not possible, then to treat the symptoms in such a way as to provide the patient with the best quality of life available. If your "psychics" can't measure up to that standard, why are you promoting them?
quote:
So why don't I see the Skeptics attacking the Christians and Muslims, in the same manner as they do alternative medicine ? Maybe because alternative medicine could be a threat (some fantasies) to regular medicine (Big Pharma), and the churches etc. are not ?
You're just talking out your ass now. Go read the Religion forum on this site.
quote:
"Evidence of a heart attack doesn't disappear with medical or woo-woo treatment"
Stupid ? Wrong !!! I have both the cardiologists declarations.
JOMANDA ANCEDOTE:
CC "...(within 1,5 months) it became clear for me from a first hospital research an obvious heart attack, 4 cardiologists were there present (cardiologist declarations 1.), then preceded my wife went to Jomanda healing afternoon for me (Note - see IGZ-report S.M, also for Sylvia Millecam, XX. went to Jomanda's healings too find help for Sylvia Millecam, in her place). Then after that a second hospital research took place (cardiologist declaration 2.), where the second cardiologist in the second research stated that - 'At angiogarfie? becomes I.T.T angiografie? elsewhere, no pathology determined'. There was nothing anymore to be seen ! ..."
This is unintelligible anectodal crap, not worth the electrons it's written in. Let's see something from a reputable medical journal.
quote:
I agree that these case should be investigated and researched, because imagine if this would be true and reality, what this could mean for healthcare...!! And I thought research and policy was in favour of healthcare for the peoples, and not just in favor of healthcare for the benefit of regular medicine.
I can imagine a lot of things that would be really cool if they were true. I don't expect anyone to give me money to research them because there is absolutely no evidence that they are true! Same goes for Jomanda and her ilk. In fact, since there is lots of evidence that this type of "treatment" causes harm by convincing the desperate not to seek actual medical care, the only investigation that should be done is of the criminal variety. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 11:49:00 [Permalink]
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Indeed, Dave W. is right, Eeken. You show total ignorance of skeptics when you ask silly questions that imply that we somehow give a free pass to Christians or Muslims when they spout unevidenced claims. In point of fact, there are far more Christian fundamentalist trolls posting their outrageous nonsense here than there are New Age nutcases like yourself.
If you had taken a few minutes to look around at past discussions here, you'd have seen that. Instead, you bust in here like any other common troll, with far more fervor than knowledge, making ignorant accusations and insinuations.
For the record, Big Pharma does not financially support me, it's the other way around. One sixth of my modest retirement income goes just to pay the insurance co-payment for my prescriptions.
I have every reason in the world to hate the pharmaceutical companies -- every reason except for one: Their high-priced, effective drugs keep me alive, and have prevented a second stroke. That's more than any rational person would expect to achieve from drinking some of your despicable killer Jomanda's "psychically-infused" water.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/29/2006 : 11:51:48 [Permalink]
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Upon the claimant lies the responsibility of proving the claim. I think that you need to study the linked site.
So ok, Mr. Messenger, as you are not Jomanda but merely pimp for her, suppose you go and tell her that we doubt that she is anything but a thief, a grifter, and a liar, and that she should drag her narrow ass in here and lay those doubts to rest.
Hmmm?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 14:38:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by FE6666
It seems rather that you are part of the regular-medicine of indoctrination: 1 pill for mass of people, generising people, putting people on one heap, I post one page from 1 website Curezone, which I just yesterday found, and your 'rational' conclusion is that "you're just getting your "information" from people like Winston Wu and sites like Curezone, neither of which would know a skeptic if one bit them" But maybe you are psychic. In that case I know where you can get 1 M dollars.
Apparently, you don't know what the word "like" means.quote:
Wind up asking ridiculous questions about whether skeptics are "afraid" of alternative medicine, as if most of us make money off "big pharma ? Where is your evidence that it is not the case ?
My evidence is the fact that I make no money from skepticism at all.quote:
Because I can give you a list of links supporting my way of thinking...
And if a million people believe a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing.quote:
I consider myself a an indivdual, with my own way of thinking and handling.
Then you are fooling yourself, because all you're doing here is parroting the "alt med" propaganda artists.quote:
So do the Skeptics attack the Christians and Muslims, in the same manner as they do alternative medicine ? If yes, where can I see that ? If no, why not, because equal treatment ? Or maybe James Randi should put his (non-discriminating) words to the test, and ask e.g. reverend Pat Robinson or the Pope, to comply with his 1 million dollar prize test, as many 'healings' are held by e.g. Christians, Catholics etc. by means of handlaying 'out of name of Jesus' by which many people miracleus get cured ? The only conclusion, if James Randi fails to do this is.....
Go get yourself a copy of James Randi's book, The Faith Healers, and check out what he's got to say for yourself. Your arrogance in thinking that you can speak with authority on this topic while you actually wallow in ignorance is unbelievable.quote:
Dr. Masaro Emoto from Japan does research to the miraculous secrets of water-cristals.
Boring old news. That the best you've got? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 14:45:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by FE6666
You just evenmore proof the Skeptic-profile...
There you go, putting people into compartments again. I thought that you thought for yourself. Guess you were wrong. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 14:56:27 [Permalink]
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FE6666 wrote: quote:
It's your life. But a 'skeptic' discussion, as you so 'claim' to want to have, is in that manner not wise for me.
Correct! Evidence and critical thinking are dangerous to you and your kind. Please continue to steer well clear of them! 
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 15:59:54 [Permalink]
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| Another funny thing: Frank tries (and fails) to post a link to this story, despite the fact that Vioxx has been removed from the market. So much for "Big Pharma's" hegemony. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 17:10:14 [Permalink]
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The opening post of this thread was also posted here:
http://www.cfi-forums.org/viewtopic.php?p=7141
Considering the formatting of "our" OP, the cfi-forums version is probably the original. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 18:19:02 [Permalink]
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So, still no evidence, eh, Eeken? Just a link to a mention of a (now discredited) "healing prayer" study mentioned at realityshifter.com, a quack site? Can't do better, can you? Got anything recent from an accredited scientific medical journal, hmm?
I thought not.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 18:21:25 [Permalink]
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The scientific establishment is inherently biased against the quacks, Half, so "they" will never submit anything for the biased analysis and inevitable failure.
Awfully convienient, isn't it? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 18:44:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by FE6666
I did not intend to show that one medicine being pulled of the market is a big blow for Big Pharma. It is just an example...
I was well aware of what your point was, I was making my own.quote:
And then, after this, if nothing has happend, a conclusion "So much for "Big Pharma's" hegemony" could be real,
No, you missed the sarcasm.quote:
What is the point you are really trying to make ?
That everyone is aware that pharmaceutical companies do their best to make money for their shareholders, and when that's the priority (humans being what they are), people sometimes get hurt in the process. It doesn't take any sort of "believeconviction" in alternative medicine to understand that.
So here's my next point: why do alt-med people in the United States generally refuse to even attempt to meet the standards set by the citizens (the standards embodied by the FDA)? While the pharmceutical companies are suppressing bad news (for them) and getting people killed, the alt-med crowd could take the moral high road (if their stuff worked) by honestly and proactively meeting those same standards. But instead, they spend millions of dollars lobbying Congress and get the DSHEA passed, meaning that many of their products are salable without any testing whatsoever. They are worse than "Big Pharma" in their profit-seeking, money-grubbing actions over here in the USA.
The larger financial motive for falsifying medical research belongs to the alternative medicine practitioners here, who have tiny overheads and huge profit margins. If a pharmeceutical giant gets caught in a lie in the USA, they face possible Federal charges and billions in civil lawsuits (see Vioxx). If an alternative medicine practitioner gets caught in a lie, they face a $10,000 fine and they've got to find a different way to tell the same lie. But what's worse is that they don't even have to lie, they can just put a product on the market and let "word of mouth" do all the advertising for them, and then rake in the cash.
Vioxx should have been a warning signal to all the alt-med supplement-pushers in America of what will happen to them if their protection, the DSHEA, ever gets repealed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 19:04:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by FE6666
What the Skeptics are very good at, is criticising others / Alternative-Medicine (AM). A negative attitude, without self-reflection, towards life and reality, with which they bother millions and millions of people. My few E-mails are just a drip in, and compared to, their mass-network-bucket poored in the world's (psychical) ocean. Because the Skeptical words do find a way to mass-media and the positive-results, proof and evidence of AM do not, which strangely enough some 'believe' and seems to be the only difference between so-called scientific-evidence and non-sense. Media-dictatorship in our 'so-called' precious Democracy for which, and out-off, many wars are 'believed' to be fought!
Wow, I have got to move to the Netherlands, since here in the USA the exact opposite of what you just said is true.quote:
The "equalilty-treatment-principle" which is the core of our 'so-called' precious Democracy.
Oh, well, that might be a reason not to go.quote:
The Skeptics say that AM must show that their treatments are working, healing and curing.
We demand that of mainstream medicine, as well.quote:
Even better, the Skeptics preach, that they have already concluded that AM / the Paranormal is not-working and/or it does not exist, without scientific back-up. And if thousands of AM-visitors and RM-practitioners who researche, proof and practise AM / the Paranormal, even a Lawyer of the High Court and Supreme Court of New South Wales, claim that AM / the paranormal is working, healing and curing, than the Skeptics already know almost certain presumptively that these people are lying, frauds and fools.
Nonsense.quote:
From this nonsensical reasoning it is very clear that these few Skeptics compared to mass AM-population, are dogmatic, and maybe even Regular-Medicine-fundamentalistic-all-means-are-allowed, believers who will never change and be brought to different thinking, minds (which they might 'believe' is critical rational thinking, but which I call deny-ignoring-behaviour out of ego, incapability, not-willing or not knowing how to cope with people who think differently. Reality !) by e.g. international scientific evidence or statements from thousands of AM-fellow-humans.
No, see the previous set-up you had was nonsense. Building upon that in another attack is just creating an even larger strawman.quote:
It is of no use and a waste of time to produce more AM-evidence, if the present already available AM-evidence is not seen, not heard, ignored of not understood, by these few Skeptics, at the cost of millions of people who could benefit more from AM if a more positive approach, in and out of personal resonsibility and liability, was choosen.
The skeptics aren't the ones that need convincing, it's the people who regulate medical practice in our respective countries.quote:
If the Skeptics are in the opinion that there is no solid evidence needed, to show that AM is not-working, as preached, than this discussion is meaningless and redundant, because it is obvious that it is about believe-conviction which cannot be scientificly supported.
No, skeptics need to see solid evidence that AM does work. We've got no reason to believe that it does without rigorous verification.quote:
Scientific Research Confirms Distant Healing
http://realityshifters.com/pages/articles/researchconfirmsdh.html
Poor Elisabeth Targ. What a tremendously horrible way to die, especially when she was so deeply involved in bad scientific research.
Note also that studies of prayer are inherently self-defeating, since positive results mean that the basic premises of science will have been falsified, thus making any such studies invalid. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 20:39:32 [Permalink]
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| Thank you, Dave, for a glimspe at the real story behind Elisabeth Targ, the flawresearch she was part of, and her terrible death. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 20:43:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Thank you, Dave, for a glimspe at the real story behind Elisabeth Targ, the flawresearch she was part of, and her terrible death.
Hers is one of the few individual stories I've got in my bookmarks, Half, just because something or someone brings up something related to her death once or twice a year. Most of the rest of my bookmarks are entry-points to entire websites. Targ's story is important for everyone to remember. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 20:46:42 [Permalink]
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| Note also that the page which prompted the Targ story, Frank's link for "Scientific Research Confirms Distant Healing," looks like it was written two years before Targ died, and never updated to include any of the relevant facts about Targ or her research. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Psychic Jomanda/Millecam: the true story
Topic Locked
