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skeptic griggsy
Skeptic Friend

USA
77 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2006 :  18:51:52  Show Profile  Visit skeptic griggsy's Homepage Send skeptic griggsy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Existence[ the multiverse]is the first cause, ultimate explanation, greatest and necessary entity and through natural selection , the great arranger[ non-intentional]. I derive this proposition from Quentin Smith in his book on religion and ethics .Existence is the repository of all causes and explanations.The god notion is just the tautology , God wills what He will.Keith Parsons shows the sterility of the notion :' Occult powers wielded by a transcendent being in an inscrutable way for unfathomable purposes just do not seem to be the basis for any sort of a good explanation.Theistic 'explanations' therefore only seem to serve the purpose of hiding our ignorance behind a theological fig leaf." Rather than explaining , the notion just shows obfuscation .Furthermore, as Robin LePoidevin maintains Existence itself needs no cause:" Now if the universe had no beginning,and so there was no time before it existed, then it cannot have had a cause. Equally, if it had a beginning ,but this coincided with the beginning of time,then there would have been no time before the universe began to exist,so it cannot have had a cause."

Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not a dead Galilean fanatic.

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2006 :  20:00:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wonderful thinking, Morgan! And welcome to SFN.

We have a certain 17-year-old here who could benefit from your kind of rational thinking.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2006 :  06:04:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tried to comment but I fell through about 12 holes in your arguement or statement or whatever it was...

Ill say that time did not exist prior to the big bang in our Universe because time requires space, theres no reason to assume time and space do/did not exist outside our 'verse.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend

United Kingdom
238 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2006 :  06:22:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Vegeta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you're 13 and retired already wow!

What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?

"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee
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McQ
Skeptic Friend

USA
258 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2006 :  06:51:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send McQ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've read the OP three times, carefully, and I still can't figure out what the poster is saying. Can't even figure out what his/her position is on whatever is being discussed!

I just did a quick self-check and have determined I didn't get suddenly stupid, but can someone please explain?

Oh, and welcome to the forum, morgan!

Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2006 :  09:28:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by McQ

I've read the OP three times, carefully, and I still can't figure out what the poster is saying. Can't even figure out what his/her position is on whatever is being discussed!

I just did a quick self-check and have determined I didn't get suddenly stupid, but can someone please explain?

Oh, and welcome to the forum, morgan!


The only part I understand is this :
"Occult powers wielded by a transcendent being in an inscrutable way for unfathomable purposes just do not seem to be the basis for any sort of a good explanation.Theistic 'explanations' therefore only seem to serve the purpose of hiding our ignorance behind a theological fig leaf. Rather than explaining , the notion just shows obfuscation. "
And I certainly agree with that. However, the rest, especially the first 3 sentences, is to me inscrutable.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2006 :  19:25:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by McQ

I've read the OP three times, carefully, and I still can't figure out what the poster is saying. Can't even figure out what his/her position is on whatever is being discussed!

I just did a quick self-check and have determined I didn't get suddenly stupid, but can someone please explain?

Oh, and welcome to the forum, morgan!


Yeah, it was a little cluttered from inside my head too.

The concept of there not being time before (ha!) our universe came into being is not new. Time as is in generally understood almost certainly has no context outside this universe.

Checking morgan-lynn lamberth's profile, I must say I'm rather impressed at the reading 11 languages entry (seriously, I'm not being facetious), I don't think I can make 11 even if you count programming languages. Perhaps having that many languages swimming around in one's head is an issue, or perhaps written English is not his primary one.

As to the 13 years old thing, I think Dave W. explained to me in chat once that that's the default age shown for someone who doesn't specify it when registering.

John's just this guy, you know.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2006 :  20:15:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually pretty much understood the OP (after a bit of struggle), and thought it was pretty deep thinking for a 13-year-old to be writing about theism, multiverses, and time before our universe. But if this is indeed a much older person, I will need to revise my opinion. (Can I be 13, too, by default? Please, @tomic?)

So, how old ARE you, Morgan?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/01/2006 23:22:18
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2006 :  23:32:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps some minimal use of punctuation might help you express yourself in an understandable fashion.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2006 :  00:00:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

Perhaps some minimal use of punctuation might help you express yourself in an understandable fashion.



Yes, indeed, Dude. And if Morgan were to discuss, say, punctuated equilibrium, punctuation would then be even more vital.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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skeptic griggsy
Skeptic Friend

USA
77 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2007 :  10:26:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skeptic griggsy's Homepage Send skeptic griggsy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
59 MALE B.A. schizotypal , but against the suprenatural and the paramormal unlike the others.Google Morgan-Lynn Lamberth to see what others say about this topic and other matters I lay forth .Some understand me and like my posts, others don't like them or understand them.

Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not a dead Galilean fanatic.
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2007 :  17:31:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skeptic griggsy

Some understand me and like my posts, others don't like them or understand them.


Are you suggesting that people don't like them only because they don't understand them?

If there's no implied causal relationships, then the statement is essentially empty.

John's just this guy, you know.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  17:08:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS

quote:
Originally posted by skeptic griggsy

Some understand me and like my posts, others don't like them or understand them.


Are you suggesting that people don't like them only because they don't understand them?

If there's no implied causal relationships, then the statement is essentially empty.



No, he was addressing the other comments of the members. Some understood (Mooner) some did not (PapaSmurf) some understood but missed the logic (ME) and some disagreed (You), I think. This being his past experience as well, he was merely justifying comments such as "english may be a second language", communication problems, and lack of punctuation, without actually refining his position or logic.

It was a pop in comment I think. One that was not meant to help matters so much as just to clear the side questions.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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skeptic griggsy
Skeptic Friend

USA
77 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2007 :  14:15:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skeptic griggsy's Homepage Send skeptic griggsy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What could be larger than the cosmos? Natural selection accounts for new lifeforms.How could there be nothing? Prof,right!

Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not a dead Galilean fanatic.
Edited by - skeptic griggsy on 05/31/2007 14:16:39
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2007 :  05:38:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did understand, I was pointing out that our universe may exist inside another verse, so whilst time may not have existed in our universe before the beginning of our universe it could easily exist in the verse that our universe was formed in. That also applies to the 'cause' of our universe.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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skeptic griggsy
Skeptic Friend

USA
77 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2007 :  08:24:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skeptic griggsy's Homepage Send skeptic griggsy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Big Papa Smurf, I am with you! As Dawkins notes, it is the physicists who have something to say about Existence, not the theologians who just guess.Would there be more on the bounce and bud theories here!Oh, some understand me but do fine my arguments wrong.Some mouth back that we atheists have faith and merely assert! Such smart-alecks!

Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not a dead Galilean fanatic.
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