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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2007 : 18:44:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you read the full article (which for some reason Gorgo chose not to link to),
I don't link to it, because it's an old article, which costs money to get. Evidently, you have a link, and didn't link to it for some reason.
You are right, much has changed in the last thirty years. The same people who are in charge, have changed their minds about Iran having nuclear power, which it is very much entitled to under all applicable treaties (again, the same treaties which the U.S. has violated) since Westinghouse doesn't make a profit.
We must also remember that Khamenei is in charge, and he says that stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons is forbidden under Islam. http://www.counterpunch.com/jacobs02052007.html |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/24/2007 19:02:33 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 18:58:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
If you read the full article (which for some reason Gorgo chose not to link to),
I don't link to it, because it's an old article, which costs money to get. Evidently, you have a link, and didn't link to it for some reason.
You are right, much has changed in the last thirty years. The same people who are in charge, have changed their minds about Iran having nuclear power, which it is very much entitled to under all applicable treaties (again, the same treaties which the U.S. has violated) since Westinghouse doesn't make a profit.
I'm curious.
If you can't link to the article because it costs money, what did you quote? Do you keep the article on your hard drive?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 19:05:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you can't link to the article because it costs money, what did you quote? Do you keep the article on your hard drive?
What is the point of your question? Did you keep the article on your hard drive? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 04:30:48 [Permalink]
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Thanks. Evidently Mycroft was trying to hide something by not linking to it. I subscribe to Highbeam, so, unless you're a customer, you wouldn't have been able to read it there.
As to some number of unnamed "experts" agreeing that it's not a good idea to sell this technology, hell, third graders agree that this technology is dangerous. Why would you put someone in power like the Shah, and then sell him this stuff? You have to be either incredibly stupid, or incredibly greedy. Which do you think it was? Both? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/25/2007 04:42:30 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 04:37:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
It is a capitalist world and the countries are like competing businesses, so it is not in anyone's interest to have new business move into town.
All very good points, Neurosis. And not that you're saying this, but capitalism requires war. It does not exist without strong, agressive armies. It is about making sure Disney and Nike have slaves in "Third World" countries.
Should anyone let Iran have this technology? No. Let's make sure everyone gets rid of it at the same time, including the U.S. Is that going to happen? No. Is the U.S. going to obey the NPT? No. Why do criminals constantly tell others how to live their lives? http://www.counterpunch.com/ruder05182006.html
quote:
Kennedy-era Defense Secretary Robert McNamara declared last year that the U.S. is nothing short of a "nuclear outlaw." "I would characterize current U.S. nuclear weapons policy as immoral, illegal, militarily unnecessary and dreadfully dangerous," said McNamara.
Since 1999, when the Senate rejected the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, the U.S. has developed a new generation of "mini-nukes," also called "bunker busters," which U.S. officials have openly threatened to use against Iran--a clear violation of international law and the NPT.
The U.S. is in flagrant violation of the NPT's provisions calling on nuclear powers "to facilitate the cessation of the manufacture of nuclear weapons, the liquidation of all their existing stockpiles, and the elimination from national arsenals of nuclear weapons and the means of their delivery."
According to the media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), "Thirty-seven years after agreeing to these conditions, the U.S.--the only nation to have ever used nuclear weapons against human beings--spends $40 billion a year to field, maintain and modernize nuclear forces, including an arsenal of 10,000 warheads, 2,000 of which are on hair-trigger alert."
Of that number, the U.S. has some 480 nuclear weapons based in Europe--making it the only nuclear power that still deploys nuclear warheads outside its borders. U.S. war plans include the strategic handover of 180 of these weapons to other non-nuclear countries, such as Germany, Italy and Turkey, for deployment by their militaries--another clear violation of NPT provisions.
And, according to FAIR, "When details of a secret White House planning document, called the Nuclear Posture Review, were leaked in 2002, they revealed that the Bush administration intended to create and test new nuclear weapons, and outlined a broad array of contingencies under which the U.S. might use nuclear weapons.
"Among these contingencies: Using nuclear weapons against countries with no nuclear weapons capacity, such as Iran, Iraq and Syria. (To be fair, Presidential Directive 60, signed by President Bill Clinton in 1997, had earlier added these countries to nuclear targeting lists, canceling assurances that went back to 1978 that the U.S. would not use nuclear force against a non-nuclear country.)"
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The U.S. refusal to consider Iran's proposal to make the Middle East a nuclear-free zone exposes what all the U.S. hype about Iran's supposed nuclear weapons program is really about.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/25/2007 04:40:19 |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 11:33:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
All very good points, Neurosis. And not that you're saying this, but capitalism requires war. It does not exist without strong, agressive armies. It is about making sure Disney and Nike have slaves in "Third World" countries.
I agree that direct competition between nations is good for capitalism and that war is mostly profitable for the victors, from the increased industrial capicity producing war products to the spoils of that victory. I would not say that war, with tanks and guns, is necessary for capitalism to thrive, but there are other types of war. There are other ways to take advantage of a less fortunate country. In this age, war practiced by a larger power is less profitable because taking any spoils is looked down on and entry into a war is validated with the greater good. Greater good usually preventing any profit as it is expected to be a selfless act, and the profits are examples of the 'real motives'. All I was trying to say was that it is not in the best interest of the anyone else for Iran to gain a strength because it is not a communist world but a capitalist one.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 06:54:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Thanks. Evidently Mycroft was trying to hide something by not linking to it.
That's pretty funny.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I subscribe to Highbeam, so, unless you're a customer, you wouldn't have been able to read it there.
I'm used to other forums where it's customary to cite sources if you use them to support your argument. That way anyone who wishes can read it in context and judge for themselves if you're cherry-picking your facts or not. I was able to read the full articly you cited by simply entering a key phrase into google, which is, I suspect, how Dave W came up with so many links.
quote:
Originally posted by GorgoAs to some number of unnamed "experts" agreeing that it's not a good idea to sell this technology, hell, third graders agree that this technology is dangerous. Why would you put someone in power like the Shah, and then sell him this stuff? You have to be either incredibly stupid, or incredibly greedy. Which do you think it was? Both?
I think you're introducing a red herring.
The issue is Iran today which is a very different issue from Iran of 30 years ago. Stupid or not, those decisions no longer face us, but the prospect of Iran today building nuclear weapons does. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 07:06:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Thanks. Evidently Mycroft was trying to hide something by not linking to it.
That's pretty funny.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I subscribe to Highbeam, so, unless you're a customer, you wouldn't have been able to read it there.
I'm used to other forums where it's customary to cite sources if you use them to support your argument. That way anyone who wishes can read it in context and judge for themselves if you're cherry-picking your facts or not. I was able to read the full articly you cited by simply entering a key phrase into google, which is, I suspect, how Dave W came up with so many links.
quote:
Originally posted by GorgoAs to some number of unnamed "experts" agreeing that it's not a good idea to sell this technology, hell, third graders agree that this technology is dangerous. Why would you put someone in power like the Shah, and then sell him this stuff? You have to be either incredibly stupid, or incredibly greedy. Which do you think it was? Both?
I think you're introducing a red herring.
The issue is Iran today which is a very different issue from Iran of 30 years ago. Stupid or not, those decisions no longer face us, but the prospect of Iran today building nuclear weapons does.
I cited the source and quoted part of it. Those that are interested are welcome to look up the entire article. Had you thought it important to look up a link and post it, you would have done that. You didn't, so what is your point?
You missed the point about the experts, and I have no idea what you're talking about. The experts said that it was a mistake to sell them technology, and I agree. What is your point? It is still a mistake. I am not advocating the sale of nuke technology to anyone. Are you? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 07:11:13 [Permalink]
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Mycroft, you were the one that brought up the experts as though I were hiding something. What they said is immaterial to the point I was making, and you've yet to explain why it was material to what I was saying.
You brought up the link as though I was hiding something, yet you refused to post it. What is your explanation for this? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 07:21:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
All very good points, Neurosis. And not that you're saying this, but capitalism requires war. It does not exist without strong, agressive armies. It is about making sure Disney and Nike have slaves in "Third World" countries.
Oh please.
That today's economy involves cheap labor from overseas is not proof that capitalism as a system requires slave labor. In fact, the model used to be just the opposite, where the goods were made at home and then exported to less developed countries. Back then, this was also described as “exploitation” on the rationale that it prevented them from developing and manufacturing the goods for export themselves. The truth is any relationship at all with anyone of a lower standard of living will somehow be describes as exploitation by those that want to.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 07:37:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh please.
That today's economy involves cheap labor from overseas is not proof that capitalism as a system requires slave labor. In fact, the model used to be just the opposite, where the goods were made at home and then exported to less developed countries. Back then, this was also described as “exploitation” on the rationale that it prevented them from developing and manufacturing the goods for export themselves. The truth is any relationship at all with anyone of a lower standard of living will somehow be describes as exploitation by those that want to.
Oh, Please, you are contradicting yourself. They are both facets of the same system. Since this is not a thread about the failure of capitalism, let's leave it at that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 07:40:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
See the Washington Post, March 27, 2005.
This is what is called "citing a source."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 08:33:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Should anyone let Iran have this technology? No. Let's make sure everyone gets rid of it at the same time, including the U.S. Is that going to happen? No. Is the U.S. going to obey the NPT? No. Why do criminals constantly tell others how to live their lives?
So we can't address Iran's nuclear ambitions unless we simultaneously disarm the US? How irrational is that?
Imagine if we applied that logic in other areas of our lives, where every time someone brought up a problem, someone else slapped them down saying we can't address that problem until this other problem were solved first.
Maybe we should tell the police not to bother investigating any specific crime until we can simultaneously address the social conditions that lead to crime. Or maybe we should discourage anyone from developing any specific technology to reduce CO2 emissions until the larger issue of global warming is solved.
Rational? No.
The truth is that's a big fat red herring. The truth is Iran's nuclear ambitions are a problem regardless of what the United States is doing with its stockpile. And the truth is Counterpunch is a biased source, and that editorial you cite is purposefully misleading in its facts, not the least of which is that the US hasn't built any nuclear bunker-buster bombs.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 08:38:07 [Permalink]
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All sources are biased sources and you evidently use yours to wrap the herring you love so well, instead of reading them.
You are building a strawman argument. What I said is that the U.S. (edited to say U.S. gummint) has no business bullying people who abide by international law and who abide by treaties, since they do not abide by international law and treaties themselves.
A better analogy would be to have Al Capone telling people that they should obey the anti-liquor laws. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/26/2007 08:40:21 |
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Iranian Manhattan Project speeds along
