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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 03/02/2007 : 15:52:00
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Why do "privacy advocates" and the ACLU have a problem with a national ID, but not, it seems, with state IDs?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2007 : 16:10:26 [Permalink]
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That is weird.
In Sweden, a driving license works as a national ID.
There is also a special National ID which works in most Western Europe thanks to the Schengen Agreement. With it, I won't need a Passport when I travel to countries like Germany, France, and Spain.
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2007 : 16:28:59 [Permalink]
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From the horses mouth:
5 Problems with National ID Cards
Besides the reasons the ACLU gives in opposition to a National ID card, State cards are voluntary… If you want to drive, you need a drivers license. If you want to cash a check, you need a way to prove that you are who you say you are.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2007 : 19:02:47 [Permalink]
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| I agree with the points Kil cited via the ACLU. There's very little advantage in a national ID, and lots of potential for abuse. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 12:52:03 [Permalink]
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Perhaps I'm just looking at a solution without a problem.
But the ACLU's reasons leave some thing to be desired:Reason #1: A national ID card system would not solve the problem that is inspiring it.
A national ID card system will not prevent terrorism. Personally, I wasn't even thinking of a national ID preventing terrorism. But perhaps had I been keeping better track of the whole question, I wouldn't have asked what I asked in my OP to begin with: I would have known.Reason #2: An ID card system will lead to a slippery slope of surveillance and monitoring of citizens. Of course, a slippery slope argument isn't that impressive. Especially when "it might lead to an abuse of power" can be said of any law that gives any amount of power to the government.Reason #3: A national ID card system would require creation of a database of all Americans Didn't Social Security already do this?Reason #4: ID cards would function as "internal passports" that monitor citizens' movements So do credit cards.Reason #5: ID cards would foster new forms of discrimination and harassment Seems to me that state-issued IDs and green cards already do the same sorts of nasty things listed.
I'm not sure that the ACLU is bringing their best to the table with that list. But then again, it seems to be in response to specific pro-ID arguments, and so there's probably background that I'm missing.
Kil wrote:quote:
Besides the reasons the ACLU gives in opposition to a National ID card, State cards are voluntary… If you want to drive, you need a drivers license. If you want to cash a check, you need a way to prove that you are who you say you are.
I don't see a national ID being any different. Or are the proponents of a national ID suggesting that failure to have an ID card should be criminalized? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 13:29:41 [Permalink]
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Good point, Ricky. For them to work as "monitors" of citizens' movements, the people who ask to see ID would have to consistently report such data back to the national database. But even the TSA employees who check IDs just before the X-ray machines at airports don't actually record any data about a person's ID, not even that the name matched that written on a boarding pass.
But that just be more of the old slippery-slope argument: if a national ID existed, then there would also exist laws that mandate national IDs have their magnetic strips scanned every time they're checked, and the scanners will automatically dump "this ID seen at these GPS coordinates" back to the national database. But that really seems to be stretching the slope, doesn't it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 13:31:41 [Permalink]
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| Well then let's start here, then. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 21:38:42 [Permalink]
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I'm all for universal ID's. They can make life easier for those that agree to live with the potential abuses.
I don't think they should be compulsory though. There should always be alternative acceptable methods for establishing an identity, even if they are less convenient.
We've had similar discussions in Australia numerous times. The "Australia card" has been on and off the agenda multiple times over about 20 years. I believe we're currently working towards a modified version.
It's interesting to note that while it's going to foil terrorism, it will also be more dangerous to security and privacy than the one originally proposed. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 03/04/2007 21:40:02 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 03:44:10 [Permalink]
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We do have national ID in the form of Social Security numbers. And if any of you had opened a bank account or applied for student aid lately you'd know they have increased surveillance of you by increasing the tracking of that number in ways not previously done. I changed my son's name because they recorded his dad's surname on my son's birth certificate despite my instructing them to use my surname. Mike has always gone by my last name. The school never asked for proof and it wasn't until a few years ago I processed the paperwork to officially change his name to the one he has gone by his whole life.
Anyway, while his name is legally changed, I hadn't sent the paperwork into the Social Security agency to have his SSN match his name. When we opened a bank account, they had an instant check and since his name and number didn't match, he couldn't get a bank account in his name. When we filed the student financial aid forms, they rejected them as having the wrong SSN. Interestingly, it didn't stop him getting a job which shows you the government isn't as interested in stopping illegal aliens from working as they are in stopping you from having a bank account.
The problem is people feel uncomfortable about the national ID which is not really the issue. After all, we have IDs. How could we function today without IDs? But we are being increasingly tracked and it depends on who's doing it and what's being tracked that is really the issue.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/05/2007 03:44:30 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 04:26:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Cune, your link gives:
quote:
Please resubmit your search
Search results are only retained for a limited amount of time.Your search results have either been deleted, or the file has been updated with new information.
Oh, I see. Well, if you Google "Real ID Act" you'll get some idea of what's going on. Clearly, the whole thing did come about in some attempt to stave off terrorism or some such. But since it's clear that soem terrorists-- particularly those of the suicide variety-- are prefectly happy to enter and move about the country legally, the notion that stiffening ID standards (or creating a federal ID) wouldn't help much in that regard. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 06:14:12 [Permalink]
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| How real is the feeling by some (if not most) Americans that National ID = Mark o' the Beast? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 07:37:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
How real is the feeling by some (if not most) Americans that National ID = Mark o' the Beast?
Well, for some it's certainly very real, at least in the sense of some march towards a one-world government, which is, of course, a sign of the End Times. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 08:11:58 [Permalink]
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There is the goof-ball in Florida who claims to be Christ reborn and the Anti-Christ, he also sports a 666 tat and has a huge flock of true believers.
For me its about the RFID tags which will be inserted in those IDs, already they can make them small enough to embed in a peice of paper, these is where the real abuse begins. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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National ID
