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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 06:57:31 [Permalink]
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Bill:
Usually, when someone loudly and publically proclaims that something is true or untrue and challenges any and all to prove him wrong, if he is unquestionably shown to be wrong, he loses a lot of credibility. |
If Uri Geller could actually demonstrate telekinetic abilities, yes, Randi would look like a fool. But Randi knows how spoon bending is done and we have all seen Geller cheating on film. Explaining how Geller, or a Sylvia Brown does their magic is like shooting fish in a barrel. The real benefit of going after them is that it exposes their craft to the credulous that might then think twice about plunking down their money to a local charlatan.
But I don't see how it hurts Randi or any other professional skeptic if a real alien space ship lands on the white house lawn. Would all the goofballs who pronounced crop circles to be genuine be suddenly vindicated? Would all that probing that has been going on for the last 40 years or so automatically turn out to have actually happened? Being doubtful that unidentified lights in the sky are likely to be aliens is the sensible position based on what we know. Evidence rules in the world of critical thinking, which is what the professional skeptics are really promoting.
And professional skeptics like Randi are not caviler in the way they present their doubt. The qualifiers are there and so is the money. Fellows like Joe Nichols are very careful not to refer to themselves as debunkers. He calls himself an investigator and investigating extraordinary claims is what he does. The claims may be debunked but they are done claim by claim, not categorically. The same goes for Randi who is associated with many investigative groups around the country. All of these investigators understands The Burden of Skepticism. You know the one. Having an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out?
Nope. If aliens make themselves known to us, I don't see how that would do damage to Randi's credibility or his job. Perhaps I might agree with you if you could provide me with any quote by Randi where he states that it is impossible for aliens to visit us.
And now, I am off to TAM…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2008 : 07:07:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
1. To my somewhat extensive knowledge, there is no particular "spot" that has a consistent history of extensive, repeated UFO sightings! One of the most curious aspects of the entire UFO/UAP thing is the world-wide geographical homogeniety of the sightings.
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Do you have any data to prove this? I have serious doubts that UFO sightings are not tied directly to areas which have,
1)Popular media/news which use aliens on a regular basis.
2)Governments who make new aircraft or other aerial experiments.
Though Im sure they exist, I dont recall a sighting which took place outside a culture which enjoys non-terrestrial media entertainment. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 07:13:10 [Permalink]
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On a side note heres a good article from Skeptic Quarterly
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-04-25.html#feature
Aliens in antiquity |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 09:11:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I said in the same post....| Because of my doubt that UAP is extraterresrtial in origin, I think that such an observational complex as you propose would be avoided like the plague by the "objects" that are causing these reports! |
How in the hell do you construe that to mean....| You appeared to be saying that the aliens are hiding themselves better since video-camera use is on the rise. |
Jeezuz, Dave talk about putting non-existent words in my mouth! |
Who else would be taking "Great pains" to prevent people from taking UFO pictures?| Conversely, that British group saw the reduced numbers of UFO images as a sign that aliens don't exist. |
Or that whoever made and flew the UFOs didn't want them being observed. This constant assumption of "aliens" as the most likely possible builders/pilots is peculiar - I would put "aliens" at the bottom of my list of suspected UFO fabricators! Contractors working for our and/or possibly other governments would be at the top! |
The context was that old British group, who weren't interested in UFOs as high-tech aircraft. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 09:28:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by bngbuck
I said in the same post....| Because of my doubt that UAP is extraterresrtial in origin, I think that such an observational complex as you propose would be avoided like the plague by the "objects" that are causing these reports! |
How in the hell do you construe that to mean....| You appeared to be saying that the aliens are hiding themselves better since video-camera use is on the rise. |
Jeezuz, Dave talk about putting non-existent words in my mouth! |
Who else would be taking "Great pains" to prevent people from taking UFO pictures? |
I think that it is what he means.
Essentially, UFO -or UAP- are piloted flying objects, albeit probably not by aliens.
For example, It could be top-secret military prototypes.
As higher quality cameras are becoming available to the general public, the government, not wantng their secret to be exposed for everybody to see and spy on, are being more careful (maybe they have reduced their operations or limited them to less populated areas).
It would make sense and I believe that it is partly true. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 16:42:15 [Permalink]
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Dave and Simon.....
Dave doubts....| Who else would be taking "Great pains" to prevent people from taking UFO pictures? |
....and Simon sez.....Essentially, UFO -or UAP- are piloted flying objects, albeit probably not by aliens.
For example, It could be top-secret military prototypes.
As higher quality cameras are becoming available to the general public, the government, not wantng their secret to be exposed for everybody to see and spy on, are being more careful (maybe they have reduced their operations or limited them to less populated areas).
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Here's the deal, ripped from the pages of a yet-to-be-edited (or finished) book. This is a very partial chronology of experimental military aircraft that have flown (some extensively) in the past 60 years. This listing does not comprise even 10% of the military experimental aircraft developed and tested since 1950!
The 50's
1950 to 1960
Convair XF-92, Convair XFY
Lockheed XFV,
Douglas X-3 Stiletto
North American X-10
Ryan X-13A-RY Vertijet |
The 60's
]
1960 to 1970
AEREON III
NASA M2-F1
Northrop M2-F2, Northrop HL-10
Bell X-22
Martin-Marietta X-24 |
The 70's
1970 to 1980
Lockheed Have Blue
Northrop M2-F3
Lockheed Senior Prom, Lockheed CL-1200 |
The 80's
1980 to 1990
NASA HiMAT
Northrop Tacit Blue
Grumman X-29 |
The 90's
1990 to 2000
Blackstar (classified)
Boeing Bird of Prey
NASA X-38
McDonnell Douglas X-36 |
2000 to the Present
Boeing A160 Hummingbird, Boeing X-32 JSF, Boeing X-45, Boeing X-48.
Northrop Grumman X-47 Pegasus |
You can see from the above images that there have been a great many strange-looking unidentified flying objects in the air for the past sixty years! To anyone but a knowledgable Air Force pilot or aircraft engineer, many of these flying objects would certainly be unidentifiable. From certain line-of-sight aspects, many look triangular or circular.
I must emphasize again that this is a small sampling of the total number of experimental aircraft that have been launched in the last sixty years, and it is only of American planes. Several other nations have been very active in military aircraft development - including Russia, Great Britian, France, Germany, and recently even China!
After substantial research, it is my belief that many of the "unexplained" UAP sightings of the past 50-60 years have been of one or another of these military prototypes. And I also feel that Area 51, Groom Lake, Edwards Air Force Base, Boeing's Phantom Works, and many other locations where many of these aircraft originated, have done as much as possible to minimize viewing and photography of the various planes.
Obviously, if an aircraft is flying in the sky at various altitudes and speeds, day or night, it is going to be seen by a number of people! Many sightings were construed to be "UFOs" of one sort or another, because you can't identify a device that is still a highly-guarded secret! I have no doubt that there are many photographs of most of these planes that have shown them to be unconventional but earth-originated aircraft. Also many photographs that were not good enough to define and remained "unexplained"!
Those unexplained sightings that included lack of sound, noiseless hovering, right-angle turns at sonic speeds, etc. still remain puzzling!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 17:52:19 [Permalink]
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BPS.....
Do you have any data to prove this? I have serious doubts that UFO sightings are not tied directly to areas which have,
1)Popular media/news which use aliens on a regular basis.
2)Governments who make new aircraft or other aerial experiments.
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| 1. Popular media/news which use aliens on a regular basis. |
What areas would those be?
| 2. Governments who make new aircraft or other aerial experiments. |
Well that would be quite a few governments; US, GB, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands, Switzerland, China, Japan, Korea, and several I have failed to bring to mind!
But even so, UFO sightings have been world-wide.
| Though Im sure they exist, I dont recall a sighting which took place outside a culture which enjoys non-terrestrial media entertainment. |
I don't really understand what you mean here.
What cultures would those be? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 18:12:39 [Permalink]
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On a matter so distantly related that it's obviuous I'm putting it here because I'm too lazy to start a new thread, the latest Mars lander has found water ice and they're breaking out the good booze at NASA!
I wonder if it's equiped to drill and analyze a core. Even a short core might give us some small insight into the planet's history.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 18:33:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
On a matter so distantly related that it's obviuous I'm putting it here because I'm too lazy to start a new thread, the latest Mars lander has found water ice and they're breaking out the good booze at NASA!
I wonder if it's equiped to drill and analyze a core. Even a short core might give us some small insight into the planet's history.
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Woaw.
That's great news!
Really cool.
To come back to the subject at hand (before I lose my train of thoughts); I read a few times that the USAF did, indeed, encourage UFO rumours as a layer of concealment for their Black Projects.
They considered the Russians being less likely to investigate reports of UFO than reports of unknown planes.
I don't know if that has been officially confirmed or if this is only an ad hoc hypothesis, though. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 06/20/2008 18:33:45 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 19:33:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
After substantial research, it is my belief that many of the "unexplained" UAP sightings of the past 50-60 years have been of one or another of these military prototypes. And I also feel that Area 51, Groom Lake, Edwards Air Force Base, Boeing's Phantom Works, and many other locations where many of these aircraft originated, have done as much as possible to minimize viewing and photography of the various planes. |
If you can correlate the drop in UAP sightings geographically with aircraft test-and-development facilities, you might be onto something.
Also, there are people who spend much of their (sometimes copious) spare time hanging around Groom Lake (as close as the MPs will let them) to get video of the experimental aircraft. I'm sure similar people exist around other known experimental testbeds. If you could correlate some UAP sightings with these folks' documented flights, you might be onto something. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2008 : 12:09:19 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
Yes.
By the way, did you like the post? |
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Does UFO now mean "Alien Spaceship"?
