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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 23:33:36 [Permalink]
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I really feel the main solutions are to electrify everything that can be electrified, starting with replacing the internal combustion engine with electric motors. Set up an international crash program to make better batteries. And switch to electric generation without fossil fuels being burnt. This'll require laws and regulations and tax incentives. And it will probably require nuclear fission generation.
I agree with those that have pointed out that useful individual actions need not be great sacrifices. (For instance, my electric bike will be quite convenient in any case similar to the oil embargo the West went through many years ago. The compact fluorescent lights I've used for years have been convenient in keeping my electric bills down. They probably more than offset my entire weekly transportation costs.) I do feel that individual efforts are likely doomed to be overwhelmed by the Tragedy of the Commons, but I'm still going to do my part, and applaud those others who do so.
Rubicon, you've jumped into this head-first, taking Bill's side against MMGW. Now it's up to you to prove you can do better with facts against MMGW than Bill has. So far, you've just slandered Al Gore, but haven't laid a glove on the solid science that he accepts.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/09/2007 23:35:12 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2007 : 23:35:15 [Permalink]
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Ok, the Honda Civic hybrid is listed at 49/51 city/highway gas mileage, so maybe the city mileage on the Prius is also pretty close to the 55 mark. Bleh... I really have no idea. 
Anything that gets an average of 50 or 55 mpg is a huge impprovement over the typical 25/30 that seems to be the average on most new sedans.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 01:42:51 [Permalink]
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| Except some of that 'tricity' is made in coal fired power plants, HM. And some in natural gas plants now that I think about it. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2007 : 03:57:02 [Permalink]
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Al Gore is rich & I don't care. As long as the science behind his books and movies is sound, he can get richer from them and apart from a little envy, I still won't care. Rubicon, going ad hominem all over Gore scarcely changes his message.
Y'know, history tells me that we'd rather kill someone else than save ourselves, and these mindless and relentless attacks on Gore and his message tell me that little has changed.
Show me where the science he uses is bad or his (overly large by my standards) house not as he has represented it, and we might come to some agreement.
One solution for the mercury in burned-out CF bulbs: recycle! When you get enough of them, take up panning for gold dust as a hobby. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 04:28:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Except some of that 'tricity' is made in coal fired power plants, HM. And some in natural gas plants now that I think about it.
Right, that's why I wrote: "And switch to electric generation without fossil fuels being burnt." Up in your area, almost all electricity comes from hydro, and in California, most of it.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 05:43:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Except some of that 'tricity' is made in coal fired power plants, HM. And some in natural gas plants now that I think about it.
Although natural gas plants do emit C02, there is less than is emitted from burning coal. C02 can be captured from cola fired plants and sequestered. This is already being done a coal fired plant in North Dakota or thereabouts is supplying C02 for a CO2 flood in Saskathewan or Manitoba. New coal fired plants in British Columbia will have to be zero C02 emissions. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 10:56:21 [Permalink]
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In Sweden, only a small fraction of the electricity comes from oil or coal.
50% Nulcear Power, 40% Hydro Power.
Nuclear Power input will increase when Finland starts up their new nuclear plant.
Wind mills are being built like never before. I actually elect to pay 5% extra on my electricity bill, which goes to funding of wind mills projects.
In order to reduce CO2, the Swedish government subsidized geothermal heating conversion for houses. Many houses that had oil-furnace heating made the conversion. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 11:42:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
In Sweden, only a small fraction of the electricity comes from oil or coal.
50% Nulcear Power, 40% Hydro Power.
Nuclear Power input will increase when Finland starts up their new nuclear plant.
Wind mills are being built like never before. I actually elect to pay 5% extra on my electricity bill, which goes to funding of wind mills projects.
In order to reduce CO2, the Swedish government subsidized geothermal heating conversion for houses. Many houses that had oil-furnace heating made the conversion.
From what I know, the Swedes also use wood pellet stoves/furnaces/boilers both for residential and commercial facilities.
Pellets are starting to catch on here in the U.S. We love our pellet stove downstairs. We are getting another for upstairs as well as a pellet boiler. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 11:58:26 [Permalink]
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One possible result: Geothermal plants could supply about 100,000 megawatts – the equivalent of 200 big coal-burning power plants – by 2050, according to the report. That power could help replace the 50,000 megawatts of coal-fired power and 40,000 megawatts of nuclear power that the US is expected to lose over the next 25 years as it closes old power plants.
- Mining heat from the earth? New technology shows promise. The snippet in Scientific American on the original MIT report says that geothermal could - eventually - provide many times more power than the US requires, but apparently there's some risk that the technology could "lubricate" fault lines, as SciAm says happened in Switzerland. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 13:27:06 [Permalink]
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I hadn't considered sequestering of CO2 by coal plants, Ghost_Skeptic. It really works, eh? I'll have to read up on it.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 13:38:21 [Permalink]
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Okay, here's a Wiki link about carbon sequestration. It seems to be a new and largely untested technology, but quite promising.
Of course, Al Gore was way ahead of the world on this subject.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/10/2007 13:38:47 |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 14:48:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Originally posted by Dave_W
Please note that compact flourescent bulbs contain mercury, and so require recycling or special disposal, which is hard to find. For example, I've heard that there's only one facility in all of California equipped to handle CF bulbs.
Yeah, they should be disposed of properly.
But they last so long you will only rarely have to dispose of them. I have the two burned out bulbs of mine sitting in a closet, haven't bothered to look to see where I should (or if I can yet) take them for disposal. At this rate though it will be a decade before I have enough to make a trip to a disposal facility worthwhile. I can handle 15 or 20 dead CF bulbs sitting in my closet in a small garbage can. So this isn't a major concern just yet.
The energy savings from using them is well worth me having to hold onto the dead ones for a while.
It's also worth noting that they seem more physically robust. I've had a probem in the past with the lamp in my motorised door opener which has, surprise surprise, a motor in it. I went through a bunch of standard globes (it's a 40W ES lamp) before having a good look. All the dead bulbs had disconnected filaments, which is not uncommon for a variety of failure modes, but as well as I coud tell, I couldn't spot any signs of electrical failure from over voltage, which I first suspected.
I now suspect it's simply the vibration that's breaking the filament at the joint. The motor is suspended about 2 metres below the ceiling, and does rattle a bit. So far the compact fluoro has outlasted any of it's predecessors. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 15:06:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I really feel the main solutions are to electrify everything that can be electrified, starting with replacing the internal combustion engine with electric motors. Set up an international crash program to make better batteries. And switch to electric generation without fossil fuels being burnt. This'll require laws and regulations and tax incentives. And it will probably require nuclear fission generation.
I don't think it's news that power infrastructure needs a lot of work in many parts of the world.
One thing a lot of people don't consider, is the additional burden that would be placed on the infrastructure if people were charging their vehicles every night. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's going to require a huge investment in the power infrastructure to make it work.
My little Toyota Yaris, which has never done worse than 7.5 Litres/100 km (~31 miles per gallon) has a supposed 80 kW maximum power. I've no idea what it runs at on average, but assuming it's 10% of that*, and that I drive it around 3 hours a day, I'm looking at an extra load of around 24 kWh a day. That's the maximum load one of my standard domestic mains circuits (240V, 10A) can deliver, for 10 hours. If a lot of people start doing that, especially at similar times of the day, the term "brown out" is something everyone will soon be familiar with.
* I know this is a really rough, back of the envelope calculation. I really have no idea what percentage of "maximum" power my car typically requires at on average, but 10% seems reasonable enough for a first approximation. Even at 1%, it's a pretty significant number. I'm happy to be corrected.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 15:08:38 [Permalink]
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Half, I am doing my research. Some thing don't make sense to me, like the mini ice age between 1300-1850.
Then for 20 years the temp increased. Then went down till it bottomed out between the 20-30's . Oddly enough the happened at 20 year intervals. The started to go up
but also down. Now the median kept rising and that could be man made.
I am now looking at Milankovitch cycles, and solar activity. I know you guys have looked that up as well and have some commentary to help in my understanding.
It probably in the UN report and discounted as being junk science or AntiScience.
But heck I am kinda weird in wanting to see all sides of the arguement before I make my decision. So to me personally, the jury is out.
I don't follow craze's or fads.
As far as my "slander" on Al Gore. He is not a scientist, he's a politician.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-08-09-gore-green_x.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=468
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/11/EDGS0INK5L1.DTL
He just doing this to re vamp his career as he did after the 1988 presidential campaign.
James Burke was better in his production of After the Warming. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0334827/
That scared the hell out of me in 1989
And you guys might even like him. He's the Connections guy. (Great show!)
Dr Mabuse's post demonstrates to me that Swedish Gov't has had a well planned course of action on energy needs. It probably helps that for the past 72 years one party has been in charge. (Correct me if I am wrong)
In the US, everything is politicized. MMGW is being hyped not because we are in imminent danger, nor that our leaders are gravely concerned about the environment. It gets press because Bush is opposed to it.
When he is gone, The warming won't go away, the stagnant energy policies won't go away, the NIMBY attitudes of our congress won't go away..
Example: In my state we tried to put a wind farm up in Nantucket, Guess what! Sen Ted did what he did to shoot it down.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/27/kennedy_faces_fight_on_cape_wind/?page=1
It's baaad when the Boston Globe puts a Democrat on the spot
It's going to die down when Bush is gone because this hype is all politics. I want to be wrong on this but for close to 20 years this has been spouted, what has our gov't done.....nothing.
So Dude, spare me that "least sane" comment. You're living in dream world or an idealist if you think this will last after the 2008 election.
When he is gone, this won't get the press or the attitude change.
Our energy policies will still stink. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 15:54:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Dr Mabuse's post demonstrates to me that Swedish Gov't has had a well planned course of action on energy needs. It probably helps that for the past 72 years one party has been in charge. (Correct me if I am wrong)
I haven't counted the years but it's somwhere around that number, however not consecutive years. It's 72 out of about 80 years. The last reign was 12 years consecutive.
And that was a Social-democratic government. <sarcasm> Just as close to the Red Commie Meanace you can imagine without actually being one.</sarcasm>
Most of those years in power, they ruled with the support of the Communist Party. It's the greatest country in the world to live in, in my not-so-humble opinion.
Edited to add:
quote:
In the US, everything is politicized. MMGW is being hyped not because we are in imminent danger, nor that our leaders are gravely concerned about the environment. It gets press because Bush is opposed to it.
Rubicon, consider this: What about the rest of the world?
Europe isn't pushing CO2 restrictions because of American politization. Europe signed the Kyoto Treaty, even though USA decided not to. Europe is setting even higher standards than Kyoto dictated.
We're doing this becase we realize that something needs to be done, regardless of what fuck-up is sitting president in your country.
Europe will not discard the MMGW report of the UN if Democrats win the presidency in the coming election.
Europe understands that Europe isn't the only one in the sandbox, but recognizes the obligation it has to future generations. Americans like you, Rubicon, acts like you're alone in the sandbox that is the earth, and take your shit without regard to the rest of us.
And you wonder why so many non-americans hate you?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/10/2007 16:05:00 |
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Political hacks water down global warming report
