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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 08:03:26 [Permalink]
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Rubicon wrote: quote:
So I am changing my view.
Always a hard thing to do, especially to do in public. I commend you for your open-mind. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:53:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
We are. The US still leads, as I understand it. But China is of great concern to us.
As for the bulbs, we need to dispose of them properly. Have you been reading this thread?
I don't have much time today so I need to keep it short. I was thinking about this and your talking about the mercury filled compact light bulbs that are mainly manufactured over in China using coal burning power plants, right? The more compact lights we buy to make ourselves feel green the more coal burning power plants China builds to keep up with production. Sounds like you cutting off you nose to spite your face. Am I missing something here? And once all 4 billion light sockets in the USA are filled with mercury bulbs your counting on 100% of those bulbs to be properly disposed of when the light dies? Seems like our track record as a whole would be a red flag for that plan.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 12:20:03 [Permalink]
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When your Pastor implies your being close minded, you'd better listen.
We've had near to a decade of close mindedness. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 13:36:00 [Permalink]
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rubicon95 said:
quote:
So I am changing my view. If the threat of imminent and permanent damage to the environment can motivate people to a critical mass on environmentally friendly technology, energy consumption and be better stewards of the Earth, then I am with him.
Well said.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 13:49:45 [Permalink]
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bill(liar for god and lair for the energy industry)scott said:
quote:
I don't have much time today so I need to keep it short. I was thinking about this and your talking about the mercury filled compact light bulbs that are mainly manufactured over in China using coal burning power plants, right? The more compact lights we buy to make ourselves feel green the more coal burning power plants China builds to keep up with production. Sounds like you cutting off you nose to spite your face. Am I missing something here? And once all 4 billion light sockets in the USA are filled with mercury bulbs your counting on 100% of those bulbs to be properly disposed of when the light dies? Seems like our track record as a whole would be a red flag for that plan.
Do you ever do anything other than lie, Bill? Because your constant barrage of lies on these forums has grown tiresome. We all know that you are an operative of some sort who has been told (probably by some batshit insane church leader) to roam the internet and vomit up your lies on certain issues. You are such a dupe that you probably do it for free too. Lying is a sin, Bill. One of the 10 things you are commanded not to do.
The most mercury in any CF bulb is 5mg. Most are much much less than that. They represent less threat to your well being than the electrical socket you screw them into. Many makers of CF bulbs produce low mercury bulbs with significantly less Hg.
They are packaged with info on where to dispose of them, or where to find that info. The package of them I am looking at right now lists a website and an 800 number.
They last for 7 years, guaranteed, or you get a free replacement. So the average lifespan of the bulbs is going to be over 7 years. People interested in conservation, who made a choice to switch to these bulbs, will also make the effort to dispose of them properly.
... I did get a good laugh out of your claim that China (or anyone, for that matter) would need to make more powerplants to keep up with the production of lightbulbs... whatever you are smoking, you should consider stopping.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 13:56:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
... I did get a good laugh out of your claim that China (or anyone, for that matter) would need to make more powerplants to keep up with the production of lightbulbs... whatever you are smoking, you should consider stopping.
So what powers the china facilities that manufacture over 80% of all the compact bulbs we use? What is going to power those plants when demand is increased to fill the 4 billion sockets in America with the compacts? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 14:49:10 [Permalink]
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bill(liar for god and energy)scott said:
quote:
So what powers the china facilities that manufacture over 80% of all the compact bulbs we use? What is going to power those plants when demand is increased to fill the 4 billion sockets in America with the compacts?
More lies from you billy. More lies. It is all you do here.
What makes you think they don't have the capacity to produce all the bulbs they want to produce right now?
What makes you think they need to build more powerplants just to make bulbs? Can you see it? The boardroom of a Chinese company that makes CF bulbs... "We need to build a bunch of coal fired power plants to power our CF bulb manufacturing industry! Make it happen!"
Get over yourself bill. The average 10y/o can spot the fabrications in your posts.
Your imbecilic little strawmen are rejected for the fallacies they are. Your claims exposed, yet again, for the outright lies they are.
If you had a shred of self respect you'd stop all the lying, ya know. But you have invested to much of yourself into believing the propaganda your masters feed you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 16:04:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
On the subject of 2x4's
My Pastor this morning at my mens breakfast made an interesting comment. It was regarding Imus and Al Sharpton. (This going somewhere trust me). We all thought Imus was wrong and generally did like his show. We (not my pastor) thought that Al Sharpton was a hyprocrite for his leading the charge.
Pastor Jim said there is a double standard but would we have preferred a race riot? He spoke from experience in France. Where there was no voice for the rioters.
Enter the 2x4
Would I prefer Al Gore to "hock and whore" environmental causes, and green technology for political gain or be blissfully un-aware until I see the green green grass of Gnome Alaska?
Pastor Jim pointed out whether you like the individual or not he gives voice to a legitimate concern. Al Sharpton with race relations and disparity. Al Gore with the environment.
So I am changing my view. If the threat of imminent and permanent damage to the environment can motivate people to a critical mass on environmentally friendly technology, energy consumption and be better stewards of the Earth, then I am with him.
Congratulations! A bold and intelligent decision, Rubicon! This goes to show that there are people, Christians among them, who are open to reason and evidence. Too bad those people seem not to include Bill.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2007 : 16:33:34 [Permalink]
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Lets see…
A light bulb that uses less energy and lasts over 7 years will mean many less incandescent bulbs being sold. (China makes those too.) And so there will be a lessoning demand for incandescent bulbs while at the same time a demand for bulbs that last a really long time which means, in the long run, less of those will be sold as well.
By my reckoning, Bill, the overall demand for light bulbs in general (number wise over time) will decrease by a lot if we switch to CF bulbs.
So Bill, why would China have to build new power plants again?
And by the way, I don't personally think you're a liar, Bill. I do think you have a breathtaking lack of common sense and absolutely no critical thinking skills which in turn makes you the perfect recipient of spin by those who selfishly seek to take advantage of your credulous simplicity. Skepticism begins by questioning your own beliefs, Bill.
Anyhow, changing over has been an ongoing process at my house. As an incandescent bulb burns out we are replacing it with a CF bulb. Come to think of it, the task is pretty much complete. Doing it that way made my initial outlay not nearly as costly as it would have been had I changed them all at the same time. It was almost painless doing it that way…
That's a tip for those of you who don't have room in the budget for a quick change. Also, the price of CF bulbs has been dropping.
Edited for clarity...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 19:26:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
And by the way, I don't personally think you're a liar, Bill.
And to be honest, I think the same of you. I apologize for the sarcastic attitude and will try to act in a more civil manner from here on out. I wish to continue our discussion, but as two who agree to disagree, at this point.
quote:
By my reckoning, Bill, the overall demand for light bulbs in general (number wise over time) will decrease by a lot if we switch to CF bulbs.
So Bill, why would China have to build new power plants again?
Because China manufactures over 80% of the worlds compacts and demand in the US has, all of sudden, jumped through the roof. China has done the math. 4 billion US light sockets to fill at about $9-$15 a pop. Now you do the math.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 19:29:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Lying is a sin, Bill. One of the 10 things you are commanded not to do.
You're right, Dude. I have lied, and I am a liar. I am a thief, and I have cheated. I have lusted, and I have I have broken all of God's commands. I am the chief of all sinners, but, I am so very grateful that I serve the Pure and Spotless One, who will advocate on my behalf.
quote:
What makes you think they don't have the capacity to produce all the bulbs they want to produce right now?
What makes you think that they do?
quote:
What makes you think they need to build more powerplants just to make bulbs?
Because they produce 80% of the mercury bulbs and the demand for them has just begun. Have you ever heard of tooling?
quote:
Can you see it?
Sure.
quote:
The boardroom of a Chinese company that makes CF bulbs... "We need to build a bunch of coal fired power plants to power our CF bulb manufacturing industry! Make it happen!"
Let's see. We make 80% of these compacts, and the American market just shoot up 400%, over night, yep, let's build some more power plants, and factories to go with it. It's very easy to see.
quote:
Get over yourself bill.
I have. Now you do the same.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 20:17:08 [Permalink]
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So a CF light bulb will last 8 to 15 times longer than a conventional light bulb. The Chinese are manufacturing, what, 80% of the conventional light bulbs currently used in the US? So for Americans to replace all their conventional light bulbs with CF bulbs, if the Chinese make 80% of the new CF bulbs, they will need to manufacture, what, 8 to 15 times fewer light bulbs? According to Bill's logic, it looks like China will be able to shut down a whole lot of their coal fired power plants. Excellent! That ought to result in a significant reduction in man made carbon emissions!
If you don't like those numbers, Bill, do some research and bring in some more specific data. But don't dig too deep. You might come up with some actual numbers that wreck your anti-Gore rant, or your anti-MMGW rant, or your liberals are hypocrites rant, or whatever the hell it is you're whining about this time. 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 21:05:24 [Permalink]
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bill(liar)scott said:
quote:
Let's see. We make 80% of these compacts, and the American market just shoot up 400%, over night, yep, let's build some more power plants, and factories to go with it. It's very easy to see.
See, there you go again. You are a pathological lair.
You fabricate statistics, deliberately distort reality, and then argue against your made up position. Strawmen fallacies are lies, billy.
As Geemack said, they will need to make 8-15 times fewer CF bulbs than they make incandescent bulbs.
The market doesn't instantly shoot up, it gradually changes as demand shifts. There will probably never be a scenario where suddenly everyone has to go out and replace all their bulbs with CF. Unless congress outlaws incandescent bulbs.
And even in that unlikely scenario, no company would go on a spree and open hundreds of CF bulb factories because they KNOW the damn things last far far longer than incandescent bulbs. They would expand, slightly, the manufacturing capacity with a plan to scale it back as demand slacked off. Because no law would call for the instant removal of all incandescent bulbs, but rather a gradual phasing out.
So the ultimate result of such a scenario would be a lessening in the need for local power, not a longterm net increase... therefore no massive expansion of coal-fired power plants.
Your whole scenario is flawed anyway, because you don't seem to comprehend how much power can be generated by a single plant in the first place.
A coal-fired plant, like many in the US, can produce 1500MW. You can probably power up an assload of CF bulb factories on one of those.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 04/12/2007 21:06:48 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2007 : 02:02:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Because China manufactures over 80% of the worlds compacts and demand in the US has, all of sudden, jumped through the roof. China has done the math. 4 billion US light sockets to fill at about $9-$15 a pop. Now you do the math.
Minor correction, a nit-pick really, but these bulbs sell at Wal-Mart for something like 2 for 4 bucks or so.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 07:14:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Because China manufactures over 80% of the worlds compacts and demand in the US has, all of sudden, jumped through the roof. China has done the math. 4 billion US light sockets to fill at about $9-$15 a pop. Now you do the math.
Minor correction, a nit-pick really, but these bulbs sell at Wal-Mart for something like 2 for 4 bucks or so.
My table saw broke down yesterday, so I had to go to Home Depot and get a new one last night. While there I checked the prices on CF bulbs. They were selling 4 packs of 14 watt bulbs, the equivalent to a 60 watt incandescent bulb for $14.98. That's about $3.75 a bulb.
When I started changing over they were more expensive. As I said, the prices are droping…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Political hacks water down global warming report
