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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2007 : 18:32:21 [Permalink]
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I am offended by the hypocrisy.
Where is the outrage against black people who say the same shit, and worse, and have a far more impresionable audience than Imus did?
Not to make any excuse for, or defend Imus, but this is a bunch of bullshit. An emotional overreaction to a guy saying quasi-racist shit, who has been saying the same shit for 30 years. It got some media play, and then Sharpton/Jackson and a host of others jumped in for the free publicity.
As the author of the article I posted above says, when will these guys take on hip-hop and rap artists?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 18:54:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I am offended by the hypocrisy.
Where is the outrage against black people who say the same shit, and worse, and have a far more impresionable audience than Imus did?
Not to make any excuse for, or defend Imus, but this is a bunch of bullshit. An emotional overreaction to a guy saying quasi-racist shit, who has been saying the same shit for 30 years. It got some media play, and then Sharpton/Jackson and a host of others jumped in for the free publicity.
As the author of the article I posted above says, when will these guys take on hip-hop and rap artists?
Dude, you're comparing apples and oranges. The host of a corporate sponsored radio program is not held to the same standards as independent musicians. If this discussion were about criticism of Eminem's lyrics, that author might have a point.
This isn't about white culture vs. black culture or any "hypocrisy" in standards. It's simply about what's acceptable speech in a corporate environment, by anyone of any color. Don't be swayed by those trying to confuse the issue.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/12/2007 19:27:22 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 20:43:26 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
Dude, you're comparing apples and oranges. The host of a corporate sponsored radio program is not held to the same standards as independent musicians. If this discussion were about criticism of Eminem's lyrics, that author might have a point.
This isn't about white culture vs. black culture or any "hypocrisy" in standards. It's simply about what's acceptable speech in a corporate environment, by anyone of any color. Don't be swayed by those trying to confuse the issue.
Umm... he made a sexist and slightly racist remark.
HipHop lyrics do the same, to an extreme that Imus never comes close to. Not to mention the glorification of violence, crime, and general social irresponsibility.
These same corporate entities that own CBS and MSNBC also own some recording labels with HipHop artists on them. The corporations make millions of dollars from these artists too.
In the larger corporate media context these artists have a vastly larger audience (and vastly more impressionable one) than Imus does.
So yes, it is hypocritical to rain down on Imus' parade and demand he be fired and at the same time ignore the same thing(but worse) from the same corporation's record labels.
Imus, and old white guy, is just easy prey. He can't respond in any way that doesn't dig his own hole deeper.
Tell the wrong hip hop/rap artists that they are misogynistic racists and they will just tell you to go fuck yourself, or shoot you.
If "nappy headed ho" is unacceptable from an old white guy, then it should be unacceptable from anyone. Anything less is hypocritical.
To quote from the article I linked to earlier:
quote:
While we're fixated on a bad joke cracked by an irrelevant, bad shock jock, I'm sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers basketball team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent's or Snoop Dogg's or Young Jeezy's latest ode glorifying nappy-headed pimps and hos.
I ain't saying Jesse, Al and Vivian are gold-diggas, but they don't have the heart to mount a legitimate campaign against the real black-folk killas.
It is us. At this time, we are our own worst enemies. We have allowed our youths to buy into a culture (hip hop) that has been perverted, corrupted and overtaken by prison culture. The music, attitude and behavior expressed in this culture is anti-black, anti-education, demeaning, self-destructive, pro-drug dealing and violent.
Rather than confront this heinous enemy from within, we sit back and wait for someone like Imus to have a slip of the tongue and make the mistake of repeating the things we say about ourselves.
I stand by my position that this whole thing is bullshit, and the loudest voices in it are being extremely hypocritical.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 20:59:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
So yes, it is hypocritical to rain down on Imus' parade and demand he be fired and at the same time ignore the same thing(but worse) from the same corporation's record labels.
No, it's not the same. Different mediums, different audiences, different contexts, different standards.
It isn't hypocritical to accept foul language on The Sopranos but be offended by it on a morning news program because they are totally different contexts. Bill Scott and other finger-pointing conservatives always try to shift the focus onto someone else when confronted on an issue. They think the shrill cry of "hypocrite!" and "you do it too!" somehow absolves them of blame. It's their game. Don't play it.
Look, if you want to take on what you perceive to be a problem in the image promoted by black recording artists, go for it. But to bring it up in the context of Don Imus is a red herring. One has nothing to do with the other.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 21:23:10 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
It isn't hypocritical to accept foul language on The Sopranos but be offended by it on a morning news program because they are totally different contexts. Bill Scott and other finger-pointing conservatives always try to shift the focus onto someone else when confronted on an issue. They think the shrill cry of "hypocrite!" and "you do it too!" somehow absolves them of blame. It's their game. Don't play it.
When they misuse the label of hypocrisy, then I agree with you.
But tell me how context is truly relevent here. Imus says dumb shit and people demand he is fired. I doubt that young black women figure very prominently in Imus' demographic. The same, and vastly worse, language is ok from hiphop artists (young black women figure prominently into this audience demographic)? Because the context is different? Ummm.... no.
I agree with you that what Imus said was not appropriate for publicly owned airwaves(that isn't really the issue though), but the hype and the hysteria about how bad what he said is... is waaaaaay overdone. Because of the wide public acceptance of such language in other contexts.
Imus was lynched because he is an old white guy saying it. If he had been a black DJ on a hiphop radio station making the same comments, no one would give a flying fuck. Just as no one gives a fuck about the exact same language, and much worse, flying out on public airwaves across the country from hip hop format corporately owned radio stations. So there we have the same context.
Again, I stand by my position that this whole thing is bullshit, and the loudest voices are being hypocritical.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 23:31:25 [Permalink]
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A case can be made that an artist is exercising free speech when a corporate label puts out racist and sexist crap. Am I offended? Sure I am. But unless I can get the fans to stop buying the crap, well, I get to be offended.
Lets face it. When you are working for a corporation, you are doing it because, in almost every case, you have some monetary value to them. Loose that and your gone.
Sponsors dictate who will stay and who will go, and so do the people who buy music that is racist and misogynistic.
If corporate sees Imus as a liability, really, for any reason (knowing that all reasons usually boil down to profitability) he is gone. And if the company puts money into producing an act that doesn't sell, also gone…
There is nothing hypocritical about that. It sucks and it's the reason we like our public stations, but they are being completely consistent. Ignore the spin. Spin is bullshit.
By the by, screw Don Imus anyway…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 02:42:44 [Permalink]
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Predictably.....
Now I expect to read about some lefty shithead sending one of these to Condeleeza. I also predict that Cafepress will make a very tidy profit from it all.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 03:45:20 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: quote:
There are also plenty of things that are not rights. You do not have the right to never be offended. You do not have the right to prevent another person from speaking their mind.
Nobody is lobbying for a law that would prevent Imus from speaking his mind. They were rallying to get him fired from his job where he was allowed to express his opinion over television and radio. Don't turn this into a First Amendment issue, because it isn't about that.
quote:
Where is the outrage against black people who say the same shit, and worse, and have a far more impresionable audience than Imus did?
Wow, you are so out of touch. You sound like the white teenagers and twenty-somethings that have been ranting the same stuff on YouTube. I guess all black people hang together as one giant group, right? Bill Cosby has been traveling from American city to city for at least a couple years now, holding community meetings in poor black neighborhoods, criticizing exactly this kind of language and image in hip hop culture. I've worked with two after school art programs and also in the Philly public schools, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard black teachers, administrators, and activity leaders complaining about the sexism and images projected in lots of rap music and videos. And on Cartoon Network, Comedy Central, MTV2 shows such as Boondocks, Drawn Together, and Wondershozen have made biting commentary about the hypocrisy, sexism, and racism found in the culture of black youth. Al Sharpton does not speak for all black people in this country. He might be a hypocrite, and he might be the black leader getting the most mainstream media attention, but he is hardly the black everyman.
quote:
Not to make any excuse for, or defend Imus, but this is a bunch of bullshit. An emotional overreaction to a guy saying quasi-racist shit, who has been saying the same shit for 30 years. It got some media play, and then Sharpton/Jackson and a host of others jumped in for the free publicity.
Sharpton, Jackson, and others do have their own point of view and analysis of this issue which differs from yours. They would probably argue that when the offending words are used in hip hop and rap lyrics, films, or whatever other art form, it is in a particular context that only those immersed in urban black culture would get. By taking it out of that cultural context, the meaning becomes more degrading. In other words, yes, they are pissed because it was an old white guy saying it, but not just because Imus is an old white guy, but because the context utterly changed the connotation of those words.
A lot of people are saying that this is the straw that broke the camel's back because this time Imus made a knock on people who aren't politicians or celebrities in the limelight who can easily respond and defend themselves. The outrage is directed at this one specific incident, but it was possibly a building frustration with Imus and others like him who are feeling increasingly free to use such derogatory language.
Also, Dude, do you seriously not realize that “nappy-headed hos” is a racial remark (however innocently Imus might have intended it)? Edited to add: I have heard my students more than once use the term "nappy" about another classmate, and it is always meant as an insult.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/13/2007 03:48:09 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 08:32:53 [Permalink]
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marfknox made yet another strawman:
quote:
Wow, you are so out of touch. You sound like the white teenagers and twenty-somethings that have been ranting the same stuff on YouTube. I guess all black people hang together as one giant group, right?
Unfuckingreal....
My meaning, within the context of this incident, is that the voices raised the loudest in protest to Imus' remarks are being hypocritical when they are also silent about the much larger, and more relevent, issue of the promotion of a racist, misogynistic, drug dealing, violent subculture in hiphop that goes out on the same public airwaves, transmitted by the same coporations, to a larger and more impressionable audience.
My personal opinion is that its all bullshit. Imus isn't a racist, he's just easy prey because hes an old white guy. HipHop doesn't have the power, any more than Imus does, to negatively influence or damage anyone, nor does any subtype of music.
But it is wrong, and hypocritical, to demand consequences from an old white guy when he says a watered down version of shit that you can hear on the radio 24/7 from rap/hiphop stations, and not demand consequences from those stations and the artists they play.
But, once again, you take the opportunity to create a strawman and get in a low blow personal attack on me. What happened to that olive branch thing?
Kil, you should get over here and moderate.... because this civility thing isn't going to work unless you enforce it for everyone.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 11:45:07 [Permalink]
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Dude asked: quote:
Where is the outrage against black people who say the same shit, and worse, and have a far more impresionable audience than Imus did?
And I answered: quote:
…Bill Cosby has been traveling from American city to city for at least a couple years now, holding community meetings in poor black neighborhoods, criticizing exactly this kind of language and image in hip hop culture. I've worked with two after school art programs and also in the Philly public schools, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard black teachers, administrators, and activity leaders complaining about the sexism and images projected in lots of rap music and videos. And on Cartoon Network, Comedy Central, MTV2 shows such as Boondocks, Drawn Together, and Wondershozen have made biting commentary about the hypocrisy, sexism, and racism found in the culture of black youth…
If you meant Where is the outrage from Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and similar figures against black people who say… then I apologize for the first three sentences in my paragraph where I responded to that question.
The rest of my response stands.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/13/2007 11:45:23 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2007 : 14:00:53 [Permalink]
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Marf and Dude, chill out!
Both of you.
Can't you play verbal Aikido, instead of going Rambo on each other?
This is the Humour forum for crying out loud. If you don't think the things posted here are funny, then please leave your comments about it in the appropriate forum. Only some place other than here.
Or just hold your piece, whatever fashion it might be.
(pun intended, this is the humour folder after all...) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 14:42:37 [Permalink]
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Umm... fuck that.
If I have to be civil, on force of official warnings, then so does everyone else.
Moderate fairly, or not at all.
You need to chastise the person who is dragging insults into this, and making personal attacks.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 16:35:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Umm... fuck that.
If I have to be civil, on force of official warnings, then so does everyone else.
Moderate fairly, or not at all.
You need to chastise the person who is dragging insults into this, and making personal attacks.
Please PM me with quotes and link to posts, so that I may better understand how and why you feel you have been wronged. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2007 : 02:54:31 [Permalink]
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Bah! I am sick of hearing about Imus! A pox upon Imus and the idiots that milk the story like an eight-titted cow!
Surely there's something else going on in the world more important than some stupid motormouth's latest fuckup... Like f'instance, the dreaded, dripping pox.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 07:38:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is the Humour forum for crying out loud. If you don't think the things posted here are funny, then please leave your comments about it in the appropriate forum.
Oops! I didn't realize it was the humor folder. Sorry to any other readers who were made uncomfortable by my contribution to the turn toward seriousness and harsh tone in this thread.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Stern Replaces Imus
