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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  17:08:34  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
CNN seems to be taking Bush's side by stirring up fears in light of the recent vetoed attempt to pull troops out of Iraq:
quote:
No safe way for U.S. to leave Iraq, experts warn
POSTED: 5:08 p.m. EDT, May 2, 2007
Story Highlights
• Experts paint bleak picture of Iraq if U.S. troops fully withdraw
• Among potential scenarios: al Qaeda terror hub and larger regional conflict
• CNN analyst: "Saudi Arabia will not allow increasing Iranian dominance"
• U.S. general says early pullout would cause "huge vacuum"

(CNN) -- Pulling U.S. forces from Iraq could trigger catastrophe, CNN analysts and other observers warn, affecting not just Iraq but its neighbors in the Middle East, with far-reaching global implications.

Sectarian violence could erupt on a scale never seen before in Iraq if coalition troops leave before Iraq's security forces are ready. Supporters of al Qaeda could develop an international hub of terror from which to threaten the West. And the likely civil war could draw countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran into a broader conflict.arger regional conflict that draws in Saudi Arabia, Iran and others.

Note that many if not most of the "experts" are CNN's own paid consultants.

CNN: Fox Lite?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  17:19:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that's one thing I haven't seen either side address. I'm not against getting out of there, but I wonder if anyone's thought in a serious way about what happens when we do. Indeed, this report by CNN (and yes, Mooner, I find the whole thing less than compelling given that it's CNN's own paid analysts and have little trust in them) is the first I've seen of someone outside the administration talk about what happens if we do leave soon. Bush did say something about chaos-- like it's not chaos right now-- but since he also said shit like "greeting as liberators" and whatever else, I have no confidence in what he says.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  23:26:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed, the issue you mention is a valid one. It's just CNN's timing that makes me think they have joined Bush's political camp, just as they have demonstrated repeatedly in recent months that they are in his religious camp. They now don't seem to be encouraging a debate so much as presenting a foregone conclusion.

And I can't help but imagine that CNN is marginalizing itself with such a campaign, especially internationally. It isn't the wisest time to join the NeoCons.

In my opinion, when (and it's not a question of "if") the US pulls out, there will likely be chaos in our wake. However, there is chaos already with our troops there, and it's only getting worse. Chaos created by a dishonest, corrupt, misguided, ideologically moronic Administration which cannot even seem to do anything at home without creating chaos here.

IMHO, it's time the US tried not being a part of, and the most active instrument of, that chaos. It may come down to two bad choices: Staying and seeing Iraq go further into a maelstrom of violence, or leaving and watching it happen from a somewhat safer distance.

Our limited choices are the NeoCons' gift and Bush's primary Presidential legacy.

[Edit: Spelling.]


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/03/2007 16:01:30
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  00:30:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find it hard to imagine things not going to pieces if we leave Iraq.

I find it hard to imagine things not going to pieces if we don't leave Iraq.

I think the analyst is right on the money. It doesn't mean he or she is in bed with Bush. There's a lot to be worried about. Do you have an issue with this statement?

CNN analyst: "Saudi Arabia will not allow increasing Iranian dominance"

What are these people going to do when the US does pull out? Plant flowers? No, I bet they turn on each other for a while and you don't have to be a CNN analyst to think that. Nor do you have to be a neo-con.

@

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  00:30:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iraq is in a civil war.

The options for the US are either stay or leave.

If we stay, the civil war will be drug out over an extended period of time, and US troops will be caught in the middle of it.

If we leave, they fight like mad for a couple years, and no US troops die.

In the end the same number of people will need to die before either side will attempt compromise. The only variable we (the US) have any control over is how many of our own troops need to die while they settle their differences.

And yes, ALL of the predictions made by the right-wing have failed to be true. There is no reason to accept that anything they predict now is in any way more accurate.

The whole speil about chaos, a region wide conflict, and terrorists comming to the US is nothing more than our own leaders using terror tactics on the US people. They are so full of shit it isn't funny. As if fucking al qaeda would pass an opportunity to strike the US just because our troops are in Iraq. WTF do you have to be smoking to believe shit like that?

There has to come a point, I hope, when even the least rational of the crazed neocons has to admit futility.

I have given up hope on any media solution to this bullshit. The media, in general, is content to continue with the tabloid format they need to generate ad revenue, and are uninterested in true investigation. Why bother when you can make money by reporting gossip?

CNN can kiss my ass, right along with the rest.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  00:35:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@tomic said:
quote:
What are these people going to do when the US does pull out? Plant flowers? No, I bet they turn on each other for a while and you don't have to be a CNN analyst to think that. Nor do you have to be a neo-con.


The point is that they are already turned on one another, and there isn't jack shit we can do about it short of sending in 300,000 more troops.

So they fight and we die, or they fight and we don't die.

I know which option I like better.

And fuck saudi arabia. They are the fucking 9/11 terrorists, they fund extremist Islam via cash donations and fake charities. Osama bin laden is a saudi. Screw them.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  01:44:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

@tomic said:
quote:
What are these people going to do when the US does pull out? Plant flowers? No, I bet they turn on each other for a while and you don't have to be a CNN analyst to think that. Nor do you have to be a neo-con.


The point is that they are already turned on one another, and there isn't jack shit we can do about it short of sending in 300,000 more troops.

So they fight and we die, or they fight and we don't die.

I know which option I like better.

And fuck saudi arabia. They are the fucking 9/11 terrorists, they fund extremist Islam via cash donations and fake charities. Osama bin laden is a saudi. Screw them.



Exactly right.

But I wonder just how bloody it would be if our troops were pulled out. After all, these people have been settling their differences for a long time with little outside assistance.

Any literate halfwit, except Bush and his pack of ivy league louts, could have predicted what an invasion would result in. All they had to do is look at the history of the region. That history is filled with invasions and colonization attempts, and general exploitation from the West -- did they think that yet another invasion would be met gladly?

Well, yes, as I recall, they did.

My son-in-law kids me about being psychic because I called the Iraq war right down the line from day one, but I knew a little of the history and culture of the region going in.

I think, at this point, that there would be a brief, bloody period of getting pay-backs, and then cooler heads, sort of, in the persons of the mullahs will smooth things out, as historically they have always done.

Maybe. Because there is a lot more going on here than a mere civil war.

No one seems to want to put the Kurds into the mix, and I think that they certainly should. If we no longer have a presence there, it is entirely conceivable that Turkey, with Kurd problems of their own, will go after the those of northern Iraq to keep them from partitioning the north. Unless they are restrained. The questions are: restrained by whom, and will the Kurds actually try to build a Kurdistan?

Then, there is the Sunni/Shiia, religious frothing-bullshit that has divided the area since the days of Muhammad, and is not likely to ever be resolved.

Adding to all of that, there is loot to be had in Iraq. Everyone concerned wants a piece of those oil fields.

Sooo. Does anyone want to lay a prediction on it? I certainly don't, not now.

But here's final thought to consider: what if the various factions put aside their differences for the nonce and decide to get rid of the invaders once and for all? Then the blood bath becomes ours because our alleged leaders and their supporters were too stupid to learn the lessons of Vietnam.

A little more to think about....






"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  02:51:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't figure out why everyone from the news people to the 08 candidates aren't talking more about changes that can end the mess besides just the staying or leaving arguments. Biden is about the only one. He's talking separating the warring parties into a federation of separate states.

There are so many things Bushco got wrong, that could be addressed.

Remove foreign contractors, give Iraqis jobs.
(And while were at it a bit of oversight asking for refunds where the crap they built fell apart before even being put into service wouldn't be a bad idea either. And lets track those lost billions sent over there in cash. Someone has that in their corrupt personal bank account, who are they kidding saying they have no records?)

Decentralize job application centers so people lined up for work aren't sitting ducks for IEDs.

Fortify market places and anywhere else people have to congregate so they aren't such sitting ducks when buying a loaf of bread.

Set up community protection organizations. Surely there must be some cohesive groups that can take more responsibility for specific geographical locations. It's my understanding tribal type groups are common in places. Use that to our advantage.

There must be military and cultural experts that have better ideas than merely going house to house trying to remove weapons or able bodied young men or what/whoever the surge is supposedly targeting?

There have already been a number of very detailed expose's on the stupidity of Bremer's ideas, the quit smoking campaigns when there were no EDs for injured people, the "Laura Bush" maternity hospital with no supplies and so on. And if there are rumors of one faction killing people from a different faction who show up at a particular hospital, help the other faction set up a safe hospital of their own. We have mobile aid units for combat injuries. It is time to get serious here and correct these now very well publicized mistakes.

What's the point of oversight if all you do is discover the problems but don't hold these Bush A-holes accountable to address them? We can throw billions down the toilet of incompetence or we can fork over some of that money actually addressing the problems.


Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/03/2007 02:54:16
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  03:25:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's my letter to CNN:


"Why is it only discussed as to stay or leave? There have been more than enough reports on all the things Bush has done wrong in Iraq, but very little discussion of fixing those problems before pulling out.

Get rid of the foreign contractors rebuilding Iraq, hire Iraqis and Iraqi resources like the cement companies.

If one faction is killing the other when they show up at a particular hospital, help the other faction establish their own hospital.

Take the time to see what a reaction is going to be toward a wall around a neighborhood or mosque before putting one up. Is there no attempt here to talk to any local groups? How do they see safety and will divisions help? Can any Iraqis police their own neighborhoods? Is there any neighborhood tribal structure we can take advantage of?

We are spending billions there anyway, let's send the President a spending bill that builds hospitals and power plants. What are we wasting that money on now? Halliburton, that's what. I understand there's some new "Laura Bush" hospital and it has no supplies. We need to be addressing these issues. Then pulling out might just happen without the country collapsing.

How about fortifying the marketplaces where people are having to choose between risking an IED or mortar rounds or not getting bread? Can we decentralize employment lines so people are not sitting ducks waiting to apply for a job?

The problems in this country are only analyzed by the news media as either we stay or leave. Scandals are now coming to light like the shoddy work of some of these war profiteering foreign contractors. Can we not put these two stories together and start asking the Bush administration what are they doing to make these people's lives tolerable besides house to house searches for whatever the troop surge is supposed to be looking for?

Follow the money. Is it still going into the pockets of Bush cronies for no-bid contracts that aren't getting the jobs done? Seems to me it is, and all the while the Iraqi people still have no jobs, no security, no electricity, and no decent medical care. Why would you expect any insurgency to end when all the Iraqis see is what a mess we've made of their country and their lives. Oh, but we have an oil contract in exchange, of course, for propping up a government that doesn't have support of the people regardless of any election outcome. Hmmm, that sounds suspiciously familiar. "




Hopefully it won't end up published with my email address for every right wing jerk to send me hate mail. I did use my correct first and last name since that's the norm for newspaper letters to the editor.





Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/03/2007 03:26:15
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  06:22:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

CNN seems to be taking Bush's side by stirring up fears in light of the recent vetoed attempt to pull troops out of Iraq:
quote:
No safe way for U.S. to leave Iraq, experts warn
POSTED: 5:08 p.m. EDT, May 2, 2007
Story Highlights
• Experts paint bleak picture of Iraq if U.S. troops fully withdraw
• Among potential scenarios: al Qaeda terror hub and larger regional conflict
• CNN analyst: "Saudi Arabia will not allow increasing Iranian dominance"
• U.S. general says early pullout would cause "huge vacuum"

(CNN) -- Pulling U.S. forces from Iraq could trigger catastrophe, CNN analysts and other observers warn, affecting not just Iraq but its neighbors in the Middle East, with far-reaching global implications.

Sectarian violence could erupt on a scale never seen before in Iraq if coalition troops leave before Iraq's security forces are ready. Supporters of al Qaeda could develop an international hub of terror from which to threaten the West. And the likely civil war could draw countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran into a broader conflict.arger regional conflict that draws in Saudi Arabia, Iran and others.

Note that many if not most of the "experts" are CNN's own paid consultants.

CNN: Fox Lite?








From what I can tell the dems have put themselves into a political corner. They are catering to their far left base and calling the war lost and trying to force the prez to pull out troops immediately. This would satisfy their base and put all the chaos of the aftermath in Iraq on Bush's shoulders. The trouble with this strategy is that all indications show the prez is not going to budge on this. Odds are if the dems take the white house in 08 they will have many American troops still in Iraq. If they pull combat troops from Iraq after taking office, to satisfy the base and to keep their campaign promises, then all the pubs would but hte chaos that would follow on their shoulders. The only alternative is to keep combat troops in Iraq until this thing is finished. Now the problem is that they are contradicting everything they are saying now and they are going to send their far left base into a frenzy.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 05/03/2007 06:27:21
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  07:05:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What does "finished" mean, Bill? Even the Prez now says "success" means "a reduction in violence." Is he going to do another victory dance if we have five fewer deaths next month than this month?

The mission was allegedly to protect the US homeland from terrorism, but keeping troops in Iraq isn't going to fulfill that mission when there are so many other places for terrorists to gather and plan strikes against us. The troops are simply a lightning rod for attacks on the troops. The smart terrorists are already here, in the US, keeping a low profile and laughing at Bush's incompetence.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  07:05:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dems are attempting to use anti-war talk while funding an escalation of the war, and making it look like they care about pulling out "the troops. "The troops," however, will be there a long time, because the Dems are as criminal as the Repubs.

Let us run those who support the war out of their jobs, and pull all troops (private or public) out immediately. Replace those in office with people who have some integrity, and only then can we talk about how to help financially (not diplomatically or militarily) in the rebuilding of Iraq.

There is no way for the U.S. to help establish any working government in Iraq, unless they bring Saddam back to life. They have no credibility at all.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  07:08:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

What does "finished" mean, Bill? Even the Prez now says "success" means "a reduction in violence." Is he going to do another victory dance if we have five fewer deaths next month than this month?

The mission was allegedly to protect the US homeland from terrorism, but keeping troops in Iraq isn't going to fulfill that mission when there are so many other places for terrorists to gather and plan strikes against us. The troops are simply a lightning rod for attacks on the troops. The smart terrorists are already here, in the US, keeping a low profile and laughing at Bush's incompetence.



At this point I would say "finished" would be when the elected Iraq government can stand on it's own two feet without the protection and proping up by the US military.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  07:20:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Bill Scott:
They are catering to their far left base and calling the war lost and trying to force the prez to pull out troops immediately.

Why is it that the Democratic party is catering to its “far left base” anytime it does not agree with the Bush policy of, well, hoping for the best? A majority of Americans would like to see us set time tables and pull out, even if there is some disagreement over how that pullout should be implemented and over how much time. Calling the majority of Americans, including libertarians and some republicans, the “far left base” is nothing but spin and typical of this administrations way of dealing with dissent, no matter where it is coming from. And at this point, that kind of rhetoric is as transparent as glass…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  07:48:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

At this point I would say "finished" would be when the elected Iraq government can stand on it's own two feet without the protection and proping up by the US military.
But isn't it already clear that the elected Iraqi government can't stand even with the protection and propping up by the US military?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  08:19:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

@tomic said:
quote:
What are these people going to do when the US does pull out? Plant flowers? No, I bet they turn on each other for a while and you don't have to be a CNN analyst to think that. Nor do you have to be a neo-con.


The point is that they are already turned on one another, and there isn't jack shit we can do about it short of sending in 300,000 more troops.

So they fight and we die, or they fight and we don't die.

I know which option I like better.

And fuck saudi arabia. They are the fucking 9/11 terrorists, they fund extremist Islam via cash donations and fake charities. Osama bin laden is a saudi. Screw them.





That's great but it doesn't mean that when people state the obvious that they are working for Bush. People need to be aware of the fact that when we do leave, it's going to be very, very bad. The CNN analyst is 100% right. Doesn't mean the CNN analyst is for staying in Iraq. Or did we read different text?

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

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