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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 10:50:16 [Permalink]
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| "We" should stay? A band of criminals invaded Iraq for the purpose of further impoverishing a country. What possible benefit to most people of the world and Iraq would "YOU" want to stay for? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 05/05/2007 10:51:01 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2007 : 13:21:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Why do I feel that if the analyst had said there wouldn't be an issues in Iraq that this topic wouldn't even exist...
Also note that the title of this topic is CNN warns against Iraq pullout when they did no such thing. An analyst said that a pullout might have certain costs that no one has really addressed. The moral of this story seems to be "Shame on CNN for employing analysts that don't paint rosy picture of Iraq pullout". No one wants the US out of Iraq more than I do but even I see a number of pitfalls.
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The way I read the article, "CNN warns against Iraq pullout" was exactly what it was about. Would you have accepted this characterization only if the article was a direct statement from CNN execs? Even Fox doesn't operate that way; instead, both networks quote their hirelings to make their points. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 15:01:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic...
I just want to add that I hope everyone that's bitched about Bush rushing into war is willing to be patient as we withdraw.
Of course in being "willing to be patient", those people are willing to take full moral and financial responsibility for 16 US troops being killed each week, 2 billion dollars being spent each week, 3000 citizens of Iraq being killed each week, countless Iraqis being mistreated by US troops, and all the other damage being done as a consequence of continuing this fiasco. Yeah, I'll just bet they are.
quote:
At least as long as we aren't presented with another Nixon withrawl where we're still in Iraq 8 years from now. A plan that amounts to all the troops gathering up their shit and marching back to Kuwait in 3 days wouldn't do anyone any good.
So somewhere between 3 more days worth, and 8 more years worth, there exists an acceptable amount of killing and dying?
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 17:00:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
A plan that amounts to all the troops gathering up their shit and marching back to Kuwait in 3 days wouldn't do anyone any good.
Actually, it would do all the U.S. troops who are there now tremendous good. Our soldiers aren't chess pieces, you know. They are people with lives. Lives which may be saved as soon as we get them out of there.
Let's see, our options are let a bunch more U.S. troops die as Iraq goes to hell, or pull our troops out now and watch Iraq go to hell. Guess which one I'm in favor of?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 17:54:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Why do I feel that if the analyst had said there wouldn't be an issues in Iraq that this topic wouldn't even exist...
Also note that the title of this topic is CNN warns against Iraq pullout when they did no such thing. An analyst said that a pullout might have certain costs that no one has really addressed. The moral of this story seems to be "Shame on CNN for employing analysts that don't paint rosy picture of Iraq pullout". No one wants the US out of Iraq more than I do but even I see a number of pitfalls.
@
The way I read the article, "CNN warns against Iraq pullout" was exactly what it was about. Would you have accepted this characterization only if the article was a direct statement from CNN execs? Even Fox doesn't operate that way; instead, both networks quote their hirelings to make their points.
Yes. The article said "An analyst"
My beef is why that person wasn't named directly.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 17:57:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
A plan that amounts to all the troops gathering up their shit and marching back to Kuwait in 3 days wouldn't do anyone any good.
Actually, it would do all the U.S. troops who are there now tremendous good. Our soldiers aren't chess pieces, you know. They are people with lives. Lives which may be saved as soon as we get them out of there.
Let's see, our options are let a bunch more U.S. troops die as Iraq goes to hell, or pull our troops out now and watch Iraq go to hell. Guess which one I'm in favor of?
This kind of thinking got us into this mess. We are responsible for the situation in Iraq. Our national honor is depleted as it is. I'm not saying we stay until Iraq looks like Virginia. I just say we need to be thoughtful and work for an exit that works best for everyone.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 18:04:44 [Permalink]
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Oh, and for the record, CNN has lots of discussion by people wanting the US out ASAP. I don't see how a single analyst mentioning dangers of a pullout in a single article indicates that CNN as an entity is against a pullout. I have trouble reading that much into such a small amount of content. What I do see is a single article enraging a certain group of people for some reason and that group deciding this single article amounts to CNN as an entity being against a pullout.
I'm sure I'll be corrected but I don't read a single article and think that an entire organization is behind it. CNN is not like FOX which seldom publishes dissenting material. Bravo for CNN for employing analysts who dare to state findings their employers may dislike. I give them the tip of the hat.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 20:45:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic...
This kind of thinking got us into this mess.
I may be wrong, but H. Humbert seems to be thinking that the United States military should not continue to be involved in this mess. That is not the kind of thinking that got us into it. In fact, it's just about the only kind of thinking that will get us out.
The kind of thinking that got us into this mess was the gullible acceptance, by a substantial portion of the US population, that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the US and was somehow cooperatively involved in the 9/11 attack. The kind of thinking that keeps us in this mess is a belief that being patient is somehow a better idea than ending our involvement in the mess.
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We are responsible for the situation in Iraq.
I'm not responsible for the situation in Iraq.
quote:
I just say we need to be thoughtful and work for an exit that works best for everyone.
How about we leave Iraq and let the people who acknowledge responsibility pay for the damages?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 22:09:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
This kind of thinking got us into this mess.
Wanting to leave Iraq alone got us into war with Iraq? Do you want to explain that line of reasoning?
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We are responsible for the situation in Iraq. Our national honor is depleted as it is.
Like I said, soldiers are not chess pieces. If the cause in Iraq is lost, as I believe it is, then I don't see the point of throwing away more lives for the sake of your sense of honor.
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I'm not saying we stay until Iraq looks like Virginia. I just say we need to be thoughtful and work for an exit that works best for everyone.
Yeah, except no one seems to know how that might be accomplished. What's your plan? Just wait it out until things simmer down? What if things in that region will never settle down so long as American troops are present? What if civil war is inevitable? If you think the war is not lost, then please outline your strategy for success. Because if you don't have a plan to stabilize Iraq, then I'm sorry, but I don't think more soldiers should die simply because you'd rather not face the reality of defeat.
We don't have very many options at this point, and none of them good. At least pick the one that sacrifices the least number of American lives.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/05/2007 22:11:48 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 22:17:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yeah, except no one seems to know how that might be accomplished. What's your plan? Just wait it out until things simmer down? What if things in that region will never settle down so long as American troops are present? What if civil war is inevitable? If you think the war is not lost, then please outline your strategy for success. Because if you don't have a plan to stabilize Iraq, then I'm sorry, but I don't think more soldiers should die simply because you'd rather not face the reality of defeat.
We don't have very many options at this point. At least pick the one that sacrifices the least number of American lives.
You know what? This is an extremely offensive posts. You imply that I don't care about American lives. That's pretty f_ing low. I have no plan. That's not my job. I only jumped into this little topic because the title was so absurd. I'm another person that just thinks it's important to give a little thought to this and look what happens. Suddenly I'm for the war, too. Not only that but it's said that I don't care about American lives? It's said that that I think we need to win a this war? I don't think any such thing. I think we need to think and act responsibly...for a change. There's a real problem when the skeptic community decides to stop thinking and act on emotion alone. Truly pitiful.
This reminds me of the time shortly after 9/11 when anyone that dared to ask for thought and responsible action was labeled as weak or downright un-American. I get it from the right and the left now. Wonderful. Shame on me.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 22:29:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
You know what? This is an extremely offensive posts. You imply that I don't care about American lives. That's pretty fucking low. I have no plan. That's not my job. I only jumped into this little topic because the title was so absurd. I'm another person that just thinks it's important to give a little thought to this and look what happens. Suddenly I'm for the war, too. Not only that but I don't care about American lives. It's thought that I think we need to win a this war. I don't think any such thing. There's a real problem when the skeptic community decides to stop thinking and act on emotion alone. Truly pitiful.@
Atomic, I'm sorry if I offended you, but I believe it is you who are acting emotionally and not being properly rational. Specifically, I think you're falling into the sunk-cost fallacy.quote:
When one makes a hopeless investment, one sometimes reasons: I can't stop now, otherwise what I've invested so far will be lost. This is true, of course, but irrelevant to whether one should continue to invest in the project. Everything one has invested is lost regardless. If there is no hope for success in the future from the investment, then the fact that one has already lost a bundle should lead one to the conclusion that the rational thing to do is to withdraw from the project.
To continue to invest in a hopeless project is irrational.
As I said, I believe the war is a hopeless project. I was merely pressing you to determine if you do or don't, because if you do, then the rational thing to do is to pull out immediately.
If you want to say that I'm the one being emotional and not acting rationally, then I don't think it's too much to ask you to explain how things in Iraq may yet be turned around. Otherwise your suggestions boil down to nothing more than throwing good money after bad, except in this case the currency is human lives.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 22:31:22 [Permalink]
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No, I don't fall for that at all. I just think we need to put thought into whatever method of withdrawl we opt for. Yes, we know it will be bad when we leave. So we need to be mindful of that as we make our plans. Apart from that, I can;t wait till all the troops are home.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 22:44:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
I just think we need to put thought into whatever method of withdrawl we opt for.
Yes, and I think immediate withdrawal is the most prudent course of action, and I've detailed the reasons behind why I think it's the best option.
quote:
Yes, we know it will be bad when we leave. So we need to be mindful of that as we make our plans.
I agree. That doesn't exclude immediate withdrawal as the best option available, however. I'm having trouble understanding why you think an immediate ending of our participation in that conflict is necessarily impulsive and ill-conceived.
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Apart from that, I can;t wait till all the troops are home.
I don't doubt that. We all want our troops home.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 23:21:28 [Permalink]
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@tomic said:
quote:
I just say we need to be thoughtful and work for an exit that works best for everyone.
I don't know anyone who would disagree with that statement.
After reading a bunch of stuff on this topic over the last couple of days (because of this thread) my opinion on the matter is still the same. We need to leave Iraq and we need to start doing it now.
I could be persuaded to change that opinion slightly, to say that we should stay for a short time more, if the people in charge actually had some plan that has a chance to work to bring about the political and diplomatic solutions needed to stabilize Iraq.
No army in the last 100 years has been able to put down an insurgency in an occupied country. The USSR/Afghanistan debacle stands out as a worst case example of what could happen to the US if we can't implement political solutions to the fighting in Iraq. Malaysia and Northern Ireland also stand out as examples of what a determined insurgency is capable of.
But lets face reality. The Bush admin is not going to seek real solutions. Their current plan is to install a counter-insurgency expert as the leader of our forces in Iraq and give him only a fraction of the troops he needs (per the manual, authored by the same general) to suppress this scale if an insurgency. this general has also stated publicly that there is no viable military solution to Iraq's problems. Lets just completely ignore all this and the fact that no army has ever been able to deal with an insurgency. That is the current plan.
So I am in favor of immediate withdrawal, as opposed to stupid strategy that will never work. The Bush admin will never admit they have fucked up so bad that there is no way to fix the problem. This "surge" thing is nothing new, it has been done a half dozen times over the last three years, and nothing has come of it. Nothing will come of it this time either. Yet somehow the debate has been framed in the public mind that this surge is different and should be given a chance to work! What bullshit.
So I'd love to see a plan that has a chance to work be implemented. A real political solution that involves all the factions in Iraq. I like Joe Biden's idea of separating the place into three states, each state governed independently by the people that live in it, with a central government (maybe a council composed of elected officials from each state and a chief exec that this council elects from among its own members).
Or better yet, lets get the Iraqis to come up with a plan! They elected a government, but I can't tell that they are actually doing anything.
The bottom line is simple for me. If our role is just to be there to combat an insurgency and to prevent the Shia and Sunni from ripping the fuck out of each other, then we need to leave now. As fast as possible, and fuck the Iraqis. I don't care how bad it actually gets if we leave (if it even will get worse at all, no one has yet to make a case for that position), because what we are doing now is a fools errand. There is no positive outcome for the US with the current "fight the insurgents" mentality, and no one thinks we can suppress this insurgency without 300,000 more troops. (an impossibility without a draft) And history tells us that even if we suppress it, we can't beat it. Ever. (well, we probably could by putting a million troops into Iraq and implementing a police state)
It really is to bad that the US can't get it's shit together well enough to manage this problem in an intelligent manner. Despite ALL the lies and fuckups I think we should be capable of salvaging Iraq. Its a tragedy that we are not and the blame can be squarely placed on an incompetent (and criminal) president and his incompetent political appointees and cronies.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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CNN warns against Iraq pullout
