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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2007 : 22:16:30
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I found a most excellent speech by Judge Jones of the Kitzmiller Dover trial. I believe he illustrates an issue that is as important as his ruling in the ID case.
Use this link to the same post on JREF to find the citation links
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81363
I just decided to paste it here for convenience and continuity.
The dangerous desire for 'real' activist judges
Judge Jones III aka the Kitzmiller et al v Dover trial judge gave a speech after the trial where he discussed the reactions he received. His comments on the risk of real activist judges were so excellent, I have to share them.
Keep in mind here that Judge John E. Jones III is
quote:
a churchgoer, a lifelong Republican, appointed to his Federal position by President George W. Bush. As a New York Times piece recently noted:
His supporters include Senators Arlen Specter and Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, and his mentor is Tom Ridge, the former governor of Pennsylvania and homeland security secretary.
Wiki adds
quote:
Jones was the chairman of the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board from 1995 to 2002, a period marked by some controversy. He was part of a failed attempt to privatize state stores, and he banned Bad Frog Beer after determining that its label (a frog giving the finger) was in bad taste
So you can imagine the surprise to the Evangelical community when in this most important ruling on allowing ID into school science classrooms didn't go their way.
Here is enough of the speech to reveal Judge Jone's reaction to the reaction. The speech itself of course is much longer and those of you interested might want to read the whole thing. It was fascinating. I just love people with such insight. It goes to show you there's a glimmer of hope for the right wing church going Republicans after all.
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Speech by U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III to the Anti-Defamation League; National Executive Committee Meeting; Palm Beach, FL, February 10, 2006
quote:
As was pointed out during that gracious introduction, it's been just about four years since I was nominated to serve on the United States District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania. Now, I came to the bench with what some might call a fairly substantial political pedigree. I was an active Republican. I had been involved in politics for decades before that. I served in the administration of a Republican governor, my friend, Tom Ridge. I was at one time counted as a potential candidate for governor of Pennsylvania in 2002.
[snip]
Accordingly, and in that vein, I found it notable that among those who disagreed with my decision was one Phyllis Schlafly. I'm sure that you know who Ms. Schlafly is and I'll not try to characterize her beyond saying she is a conservative columnist and pundit. I don't know Ms. Schlafly and I assume based on her résumé that she's a fine person. However, under the banner "Judge's unintelligent rant against design," Ms. Schlafly authored a January 2006 column and within her column she noted that, and I'm quoting here, that I "owed my position as a Federal Judge entirely to the evangelical Christians who pulled the lever for George W. Bush in 2002" and that I, I'm still quoting here, "stuck the knife in those who brought me to the dance in Kitzmiller versus Dover Area School District." Other than that, she really liked my decision. (Not
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Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/06/2007 00:58:28
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 00:22:35 [Permalink]
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Reading your post, with its quotes, it appears Judge Jones was nearly as careful and thoughtful in his speech as he was in his Kitzmiller v Dover decision. People like Phyllis Schlafly know little and care less for ideals such as justice under the law. It's all about ideology and power for the likes of her.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 07:44:45 [Permalink]
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It should be remembered that a political appointment does not mean that the person appointed will not perform their duties with honor. Judge Jones made that clear. So did the eight U.S. attorneys fired from their jobs because they refused to knuckle under to political pressure, and so put their ethics and their jobs above politics. These folks are real heroes. They hold the line against nothing less than a political Mafioso, smug in their assurance that they have these appointees in their pockets. Hell, eight of them were “whacked” because they weren't showing the proper respect to their Don (Bush) by perverting justice to please “the family”. (“Nothing personal.…It's only business” is what has come out as the reason for the firings.)
Phyllis Schlafly (a solder in the family) tipped her hand when she said “[Jones] owe[s] his position as a Federal Judge entirely to the evangelical Christians who pulled the lever for George W. Bush in 2002, and that [he] stuck the knife in those who brought [him] to the dance in Kitzmiller versus Dover Area School District.” Of course, Schlafly is always one of the first to decry political activism on the bench. I guess in her world, the definition of political activism is when she doesn't like the ruling. Her hypocrisy is breathtaking. It is so blatant that it would be natural to wonder if she believes her own bullshit. I think she does. Those folks (the family) are so depraved that they all happily work with what appears to be the same cracked moral compass (if they ever had one that worked) and no concept of ethics at all.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 10:16:16 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
quote:
I guess in her world, the definition of political activism is when she doesn't like the ruling.
That has always been the case with these assholes on the religious right.
You can't find a single case where these people both agree with the ruling and think it was a case of judicial activism.
What they are doing is nothing less than intimidating judges, trying to coerce them into ruling in a specific way in order to avoid the flack from these very loud assholes.
They also don't understand how the US judicial system works. It is an outgrowth of the old common law system (from Britian) and it has been around LONGER than the US constitution.
They hope to be able to exert influence over our courts with the threat of the "activist judge" label. Obviously they picked the wrong guy to mess with in Judge Jones.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 01:03:44 [Permalink]
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I posted this at JREF so it might seem to be a non sequitur reply. Just consider it a general comment.
My guess is the term, "activist judge" was invented by Republican marketing specialist, Frank Luntz. He was famous for many of the talking points memos. George Lakoff describes it as "framing".
Lakoff is the UC Berkeley linguistics professorquote:
A rebel protégé of radical linguist Noam Chomsky, Lakoff is considered one of the fathers of cognitive linguistics, which is based on the premise that human thought is governed by unconscious conceptual metaphors, or frames, that manifest in language. This is no arcane field of scholarly inquiry. The key to stemming the conservative tide, Lakoff firmly believes, is to change the terms of the debate. We live in an era dominated by Republican rhetoric, he says. The death tax. Activist judges. Lawsuit abuse. Partial-birth abortion. None of these phrases were commonplace 15 years ago, yet now these GOP slogans act as far more than catchy monikers for Republican policy. Through constant repetition, they are influencing our perception of the issues.
I get a bit annoyed hearing the term referred to as being used equally by the right and the left whenever a decision isn't liked.
Judge Jones in this speech gives us the definition of an activist judge. If Judge Moore (of the 10 Commandments in my courtroom fame) were to rule on something based on his religious convictions instead of the law, that would be an activist judge. And considering he clearly put his religion over his judicial duties, he was rightly dismissed from the bench.
The Democrats are not saints, they aren't corruption free, but here now, in this time in history, it is the Republicans (and it seems only a small radical faction in the Party) who are trying to corrupt the judicial system. And they are using the terminology, activist judge, as their excuse or cover-up for really installing activist judges.
Share the blame when it's due. Right now, we have a small group of extreme ideologues who would like nothing less than a judiciary which favored Republicans, big business, and the Evangelical religious beliefs. It's fine for them to appoint judges they feel share their views. Jones did that. It isn't fine for them to expect those judges to make corrupt decisions. Jones didn't do that. And neither did the Shiavo case judge or the attorneys Gonzales oversaw the firing of.
That's very hopeful things are turning around.
Makes you wonder about the attorneys not on the Gonzales' firing list though.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/06/2007 14:56:49 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 06:27:50 [Permalink]
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| Hey Bgal, just one thing. The people Gonzales fired were not judges. They were U.S. attorney's. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 14:56:07 [Permalink]
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| I know, I made that stupid error. I can fix it here but not on JREF. Just a brain lapse on my part. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/06/2007 14:57:04 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 19:04:22 [Permalink]
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Not to be picky or nothin, but 2002 wasn't a Presidential election year...... So how could those "good Christians" pull the lever for GWB in 2002?
As for Jones, I've read his opinion. From it, you cannot tell what religion or political party he's a member of. You just see the application of law well supported. If I were wrongly accused of a crime, I'd want him on the bench. He's an excellent jurist. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 23:26:06 [Permalink]
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BTW, I took the time to read (thus far) almost all of the lengthy cross-examination by Rothschild of Michael Behe in the Dover trial, a cross that Judge Jones mentions with some respect, and which he expects will be taught in law schools. (Thanks, Dave, for the link that led me to the link.)
Behe was, throughout, evasive, defensive, and deceptive, and often almost incomprehesible with confusion as he repeatedly attempted to lie his way out of a long paper trail of contradictions. The most well-reported detail was Behe being forced by Rothschild to admit that, according to his (Behe's) peculiarly broad definition of a "scientific theory," astrology would be a "scientific theory" in the same sense that ID was.
But I enjoyed reading the transcript just for the joy of seeing (in my mind's eye) an infamous liar like Behe sweating and stuttering under oath, as he added lies to cover up lies, and failed totally.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/06/2007 23:29:14 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 23:39:25 [Permalink]
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Val said:
quote:
Not to be picky or nothin, but 2002 wasn't a Presidential election year...... So how could those "good Christians" pull the lever for GWB in 2002?
You have to be able to translate kil-bonics.
Kil-bonics- 2002
English- 2000
Please note that this one example does not imply that kil-bonic's years are +2 Gregorian. There has yet to be an actual analysis that can demonstrate consistent logic in the kil-bonics system. You just have to be able to take in an entire post in kil-bonics and decipher it as best you can, drawing from both the post and your own knowledge of English (and other basic things), and with a little practice you can usually understand the post.
 I KIL me! HAHA!
.... errr yeah.
I did know what he meant though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 07:03:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Val said:
quote:
Not to be picky or nothin, but 2002 wasn't a Presidential election year...... So how could those "good Christians" pull the lever for GWB in 2002?
You have to be able to translate kil-bonics.
Kil-bonics- 2002
English- 2000
Please note that this one example does not imply that kil-bonic's years are +2 Gregorian. There has yet to be an actual analysis that can demonstrate consistent logic in the kil-bonics system. You just have to be able to take in an entire post in kil-bonics and decipher it as best you can, drawing from both the post and your own knowledge of English (and other basic things), and with a little practice you can usually understand the post.
I KIL me! HAHA!
.... errr yeah.
I did know what he meant though.
That is not a proper analysis of the quote. For one thing, Judge Jones said it quoting Phyllis Schlafly. So you see, kilbonics did not play a role in the mistake.
Also, the use of kilbonics usually refers to some very creative spelling.
Often, it's breathtakingly creative. Kilbonics does not imply a mistake so much as it does a poetic license to bring an otherwise drab word to life. To surprise and delight the reader with a new and unexpected puzzle that often sheds more light and meaning on a word than it otherwise would not have, as simply the background noise of common English spelling…
Back to your studies Dude. As the preeminent expert on the use of kilbonics, I would have to say you have failed in your linguistical analysis of this non gene dependent art form.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 11:51:10 [Permalink]
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Well, it was funnier before you had to go and mention those pesky quotation marks.
Just a regular "BuzzKil" aren't you?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2011 : 19:37:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Not to be picky or nothin, but 2002 wasn't a Presidential election year...... So how could those "good Christians" pull the lever for GWB in 2002? |
They, along with a lot of other people who were not evangelical Christians, pulled the lever for GWB IN 2000 but it wasn't until 2002 that John Edward Jones III was appointed by GWB as Federal Judge.
and,,,
I came across this interview some time ago and seeing how it's so slow around here lately, as during the end of every year, I thought I would post it. I chose to post it on this thread rather than start a new one.
It's an interview of Judge Jones about the case. Also, it's about the history of theists banning the teaching of Evolution in schools and their attempts to get ID into the schools after the bans were struck down, leading up to this case. It is packed with information.
Edited to add
posted by Valiant Dancer
As for Jones, I've read his opinion. From it, you cannot tell what religion or political party he's a member of. You just see the application of law well supported. If I were wrongly accused of a crime, I'd want him on the bench. He's an excellent jurist. |
The interview ends with Judge Jones saying this,,,| When I take my last breath and they publish my obituary, the first line will say that I presided over the intelligent design trial. I can't top this, I don't think, and I'm fine with that, if this is what I'm remembered for. I'm proud of what I did. I thought I discharged my obligations and my duties well. |
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
| Edited by - sailingsoul on 12/26/2011 20:17:00 |
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I found some things of interest on activist judges
