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Baza
New Member

United Kingdom
47 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  07:14:19  Show Profile Send Baza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why is it that posters both here and in other forums, when confronted with disbelief for their various theories contend "that people used to belive that the earth is flat", when there is very little evidence to show that many people ever did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Baza

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  07:52:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to SFN, Baza!

The Wiki article you linked to above certainly contends that many scholarly people believed in a flat earth in antiquity. But:
The modern misconception that people of the Middle Ages believed that the Earth was flat first entered the popular imagination in the nineteenth century, thanks largely to the publication of Washington Irving's fantasy The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828.
However, this disregards the many stubborn Biblical literalists, who, up until about the beginning of the 20th Century were quite willing to disregard evidence to the contrary, in order to defend the "flat, four-cornered disk" of the Bible. Eventually, looking like the ignorant fools they were, they quietly abandoned the notion.

There's hardly a fundamentalist who will argue for a flat earth these days, Bible or not, though most of them still argue for that other laughable nonsense, a young earth "created" just a few thousand years ago. The latter is equally Biblical, and equally silly. The day when most fundies will be forced to quietly abandon Creationism is probably just a few decades away.

Yes, many people did formerly believe the earth was flat, but that's hardly any support for woo-woo "theories." Next time someone mentions that in attempted support of his nonsense, throw it back in his face and say, "Even worse, some people like yourself still believe in fairytales!"


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  09:39:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Halfmooner, according to anyone reading the bible the earth is described as a sphere hanging in space.

Job 26:7 (King James Version)

7He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Isaiah 40:22 (New International Version)

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.


In hebrew circle is defined as such:

chuwg:TO DESCRIBE A CIRCLE, TO DRAW A CIRCLE, as with a compass.
chuwg:a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky,

It was not anyone reading the text who believed in a flat earth.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  09:45:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Halfmooner, according to anyone reading the bible the earth is described as a sphere hanging in space.
No, not a sphere. A circle--specifically a flat disc covered by a dome.

Feel free to educate yourself as to what the bible-writers actually believed.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  10:14:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
H. Humbert, thanks for the link. I must say nothing in that link even suggests what the bible writers believed only what some religions taught. You must admit these are two very different things.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  11:00:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

H. Humbert, thanks for the link. I must say nothing in that link even suggests what the bible writers believed only what some religions taught. You must admit these are two very different things.
From the article:
Conclusion

From their geographical and historical context, one would expect the ancient Hebrews to have a flat-earth cosmology. Indeed, from the very beginning, ultra-orthodox Christians have been flat-earthers, arguing that to believe otherwise is to deny the literal truth of the Bible. The flat-earth implications of the Bible were rediscovered and popularized by English-speaking Christians in the mid-19th century. Liberal scriptural scholars later derived the same view. Thus, students with remarkably disparate points of view independently concluded that the ancient Hebrews had a flat-earth cosmology, often deriving this view from scripture alone. (emphasis mine)
The bible-writers almost certainly believed in a flat earth. True, no one can be absolutely certain of the beliefs of a people who died thousands of years ago, but that's what the evidence points to. If your only evidence that they didn't believe in a flat earth is what's written in the bible, then we can safely discard such a point of view.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend

United Kingdom
238 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  11:59:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Vegeta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
circles are flat, no?

What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?

"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  13:24:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome, Isaiah 11:12 says
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
That would be a flat, square earth. But later in Isaiah, 40:22, the earth is a flat disk:
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Nowhere in the Bible is the earth described as a sphere, or as anything but flat. That's why I advisedly used the expression, "flat, four-cornered disk" to describe the Bible's paradoxical earth, in my first post above.

If you insist the Bible says otherwise, provide a quote, Jerome, and not one that supports a flat earth.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/26/2007 13:45:22
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  15:51:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The claim, the Bible described the Earth as a sphere, is a propaganda tactic initiated by certain people who in their wishful thinking, want science to support the Biblical view. The same lie is passed from person to person and people like you, Jerome, believe it without question because you also in your magical thinking want science to support rather than cast doubt on the validity of Biblical text. If you read the text it talks about standing somewhere and looking around in a 360 degree view. It says nothing about a globe you could circle. It says nothing about walking in one direction and ending up back where you started.

Magical thinking, nothing more.

In reality, scientific evidence refutes about 90% (give or take) of the stories in the Bible. Just as there is no Zeus, Pele' or Ra, neither is there a God.

Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/26/2007 15:51:59
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  16:00:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Baza

Why is it that posters both here and in other forums, when confronted with disbelief for their various theories contend "that people used to belive that the earth is flat", when there is very little evidence to show that many people ever did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
I'm not sure where you get the "ever" here. Obviously at some point people had no concept of gravity, couldn't see the curvature of the Earth, and likely couldn't imagine you could stand on a round Earth without falling off half of it.

But as has been pointed out, there is a common myth attached to Columbus' voyage about the belief in a flat Earth being common when apparently that wasn't the case.

Welcome to SFN, btw.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/26/2007 16:00:43
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  16:26:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Baza

Why is it that posters both here and in other forums, when confronted with disbelief for their various theories contend "that people used to belive that the earth is flat", when there is very little evidence to show that many people ever did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
I think your complaint would have had more merit if the quote had been: "that most people used to belive that the earth is flat"
Since there is no qualifier before "people" in the original, I see no reason why it couldn't be used. More people used to believe the world was flat than do now...

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  16:27:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Once again all you guys seems to to is quote others with your same world view. Look up the words and read the definitions, words do have meanings. Do some research and find the answers for yourselves; relying on others opinions that support your preconceived notions leave one with less knowledge not more.

The ironic thing is I am positive in most cases I agree with most base positions you all hold; only I will not ignore facts that disrupt those base ideas and will not use specious speculations to support them.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  16:40:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Beskeptigal said "In reality, scientific evidence refutes about 90% (give or take) of the stories in the Bible."

This sounds to be a ridiculous statement. I concede I may be incorrect in this assessment, so if you have evidence of scientific refutation of over 85% of the bible would you please provide it.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  17:10:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
specious speculations


That made me laugh out loud.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  18:04:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Look up the words and read the definitions, words do have meanings.
Except when you don't like them, like with the word "literate."
Do some research and find the answers for yourselves; relying on others opinions that support your preconceived notions leave one with less knowledge not more.
In this case, the ability to not rely on someone else's opinion would require a time machine so that we can go back and interrogate the author(s) of the Old Testament directly. Anything else relies upon someone else's opinion, just like your own conclusion does. So, until you're able to stop parroting someone else's preconceived notion, you should quit preaching that we shouldn't.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  18:07:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Once again all you guys seems to to is quote others with your same world view. ...

If you mean, a world view that takes evidence into account, you may have a point.

I demand again, show where the Bible says the earth is spherical, not flat-and-square, nor even flat-and-round. There is no such verse, is there, Jerome? In fact, the Bible is even internally inconsistent, describing the earth as both a disk and as a square -- but never as a sphere.

Aesop's freaking Fables probably contain better science.

One measure of progress in all this: Your constant display of cognitive dissonance is more understandable at last. By taking up the Christian apologists' dishonest invention of the notion of a Biblical spherical earth, you now are revealing yourself as a victim (and carrier) of the most powerful force for bullshit, cognitive dissonance, and magical thinking in the world, religion.

It somehow makes me feel better when I can understand something remarkably bizarre like your thought processes, though knowing you are likely just another religious loon is only partially comforting.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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