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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  18:39:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You all have no idea; only assumption, whether I believe that any, all, or none of the bible. Without searching the meanings of the Hebrew words you have made proclamations without fact. I believe what is in evidence, not what I choose. I assumed skeptic meant suspending judgment prior to looking at the evidence. This does not seem to be the case as none has even looked up the word we are talking about; only assuming it is what you want to believe it to be.

LAZY



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  19:11:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

You all have no idea; only assumption, whether I believe that any, all, or none of the bible. Without searching the meanings of the Hebrew words you have made proclamations without fact. I believe what is in evidence, not what I choose. I assumed skeptic meant suspending judgment prior to looking at the evidence. This does not seem to be the case as none has even looked up the word we are talking about; only assuming it is what you want to believe it to be.

LAZY



Call me lazy all you want, Jerome, but it is you who have not produced a shred of evidence to back up your crazy claims.

You avoid citing a spherical earth verse, I see. Since there is no such verse, I can hardly blame you. I can blame you for spreading lies, however, even if you were not the one who invented them. It's time you admitted you were wrong.

If you are not a fundamentalist who is using the argument that the Bible describes a spherical earth (in order to make the Bible look slightly less stupid), you might begin by saying so, and not by stamping your feet and complaining about people's perceptions of your motivations, while avoiding the issue of your motivations themselves. I'm inclined to accept your explanation on its face, if you provide it. If you don't, of course I'm going to make some assumptions to explain your mysterious thought processes.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  19:14:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Without searching the meanings of the Hebrew words you have made proclamations without fact.
No, dummy. The author of the article I linked for you did provide the meaning of the original Hebrew words. He stated his conclusions based on a multitude of facts. Exactly which portion of his research do you contest?

I believe what is in evidence, not what I choose.
And I gave you an article which listed that evidence. All you've done is handwave it away and continued on in your original belief, for which you've offered no evidence save a handful of bible verses. Are you suggesting that you trust your own judgement over and above that of bible scholars?

I assumed skeptic meant suspending judgment prior to looking at the evidence. This does not seem to be the case as none has even looked up the word we are talking about; only assuming it is what you want to believe it to be.

LAZY
No, research is not lazy. You know what is damn lazy though? Ignorantly believing that you can understand the original intent of biblical texts without any prior background, training, or historical understanding of the context in which they were written. That's about as lazy as it gets.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  20:22:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
H. Humbert, great job calling me out with an assertion that the article you linked define the Hebrew word we are discussing. Opps, I reread the article and that word is not defined, please read your proofs before using them to express your hubris.

My original belief is based on the definition of a single word; which no one has yet to define. The only response is accusations ranging from lier, ignorant, hand waving, lack of comprehension, feet stamping, complaining, double think, in addition to other inferred insults. Do you believe all facts must correspond to your preconceived notions of the world so much so that any research into facts is to be eschewed on the grounds that it might upset the apple cart?




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  20:39:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Halfmooner, I actually believe religion is a bad thing for mankind, so again you jump to conclusions without facts, for the propose of making insults.

You should also look up the definition of cognitive dissonance which you linked. I have not represented anything coming close to double think in these forums. There are many terms you could use to insult me with; I just think you should use one that approaches my writing, at least to some extent.




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  21:59:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

My original belief is based on the definition of a single word; which no one has yet to define.
You did. One word for a single verse among many which point towards a conclusion that contradicts yours. "Sphere" isn't even the primary definition of chuwg. Why should anyone have to provide a different definition when yours suffices just fine to show that you're wrong?
The only response is accusations ranging from lier, ignorant, hand waving, lack of comprehension, feet stamping, complaining, double think, in addition to other inferred insults. Do you believe all facts must correspond to your preconceived notions of the world so much so that any research into facts is to be eschewed on the grounds that it might upset the apple cart?
Apparently you do, because you have done no "research" whatsoever into the Bible, you've only relied upon other people's opinions about it - something you hypocritically said that we shouldn't do.

The sad fact is that at least two verses refer to things (a tree and a mountain, specifically) that can be seen from, or from which one can see, "the whole Earth," and so we know that the authors didn't think the Earth was spherical. Nor do spheres have corners. So the majority of the evidence from the Bible suggests a non-spherical Earth, but you'd like to disagree because of a secondary definition of a single word. That's some impressive cherry picking.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  23:38:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Beskeptigal said "In reality, scientific evidence refutes about 90% (give or take) of the stories in the Bible."

This sounds to be a ridiculous statement. I concede I may be incorrect in this assessment, so if you have evidence of scientific refutation of over 85% of the bible would you please provide it.


Since the Bible is quite long and it would require I invest considerable time to go through story by story, how about you pick 2 or 3 at random and we can have a go?


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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  23:51:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yiddish dictionary online: sphere = koyl

Yiddish dictionary online: circle = krayz and ringlen zikh


Bible Gateway

Search for 'circle' in "Young's Literal Translation

The Search for 'sphere' in the same version gets no results.

I await your own search, Jerome, for some evidence to support the myth the Bible describes the Earth as a sphere in any original version. Your assumption I and other skeptics have not investigated this claim is absurd.





Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/26/2007 23:52:57
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  23:58:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Halfmooner, I actually believe religion is a bad thing for mankind, so again you jump to conclusions without facts, for the propose of making insults.

You should also look up the definition of cognitive dissonance which you linked. I have not represented anything coming close to double think in these forums. There are many terms you could use to insult me with; I just think you should use one that approaches my writing, at least to some extent.




Well, so much for my minor and short-lived apparent triumph in figuring out your thought processes. That you're not religious is fine in itself, but it highlights your cognitive dissonance all the more, as you've taken a religious apologists' peculiar talking point, and have run with it as though it were the Gospel.

I apologize for the religious assumption. I did not jump to the conclusion that your thinking was religiously motivated in order that I might insult you, but merely in an effort to figure out your thinking. Now, I'm back to scratching my head.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2007 :  00:51:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Careful, HM. He said religion was bad, did he say he wasn't a Bible believer?


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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2007 :  03:14:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

You all have no idea; only assumption, whether I believe that any, all, or none of the bible. Without searching the meanings of the Hebrew words you have made proclamations without fact. I believe what is in evidence, not what I choose. I assumed skeptic meant suspending judgment prior to looking at the evidence. This does not seem to be the case as none has even looked up the word we are talking about; only assuming it is what you want to believe it to be.
You assume that we haven't encountered, and researched, this argument before.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2007 :  05:54:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Careful, HM. He said religion was bad, did he say he wasn't a Bible believer?



D'oh! You're right!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2007 :  06:55:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will say that some cultures did believe in a spherical earth, the Eqyptians even developed a method of determining the circumfrence. This doesnt mean that it was a widespread belief though, as many scientific arguements are ignored even today. The Romans certainly didnt believe it and neither did Alexanders Greeks.

Ive seen no evidence that the Hebrews felt it was a sphere. I would start with the cultures who had highly accurate calendars, like the Indians and Chinese*

*I didnt research this so spare me.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2007 :  08:33:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Beskeptigal, Yiddish is a German language written in Hebrew characters that is spoken by Jews and descendants of Jews of central and eastern European origin, thus a Yiddish dictionary is not a valid representation of Hebrew words in the bible.

It seems that the Hebrew word chuwg, or hhug, can mean circle as much as sphere, as such there is doubt as to the ancient Hebrews meaning. Thus to state the biblical writers believed in flat earth is speculation not fact. The other phrases provided to prove biblical belief in flat earth are taken from examples of literary imaging. Satan did not literally show Jesus "all the world nations" from the top of a mountain; and it is doubtful any reading the text at the time believed such, as they could see that it would be impossible based on their current experience.

I fully admit I could be wrong about what the ancient Hebrews believed in relation to flat earth theory, but the evidence provided to state that they did believe in flat earth is only thus far presumption.



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2007 :  08:43:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Beskeptigal said "In reality, scientific evidence refutes about 90% (give or take) of the stories in the Bible."

This sounds to be a ridiculous statement. I concede I may be incorrect in this assessment, so if you have evidence of scientific refutation of over 85% of the bible would you please provide it.


Since the Bible is quite long and it would require I invest considerable time to go through story by story, how about you pick 2 or 3 at random and we can have a go?





How about Ponchos Pilate?

Roman destruction of the temple.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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