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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2007 : 09:01:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It seems that the Hebrew word chuwg, or hhug, can mean circle as much as sphere... |
Provide evidence that the "sphere" usage is anywhere close to as common as the "circle" usage.| The other phrases provided to prove biblical belief in flat earth are taken from examples of literary imaging. |
Then why is Isiah 40:22 not literary imaging, in your opinion?| Satan did not literally show Jesus "all the world nations" from the top of a mountain; and it is doubtful any reading the text at the time believed such, as they could see that it would be impossible based on their current experience. |
You're relying upon other people's opinions to tell you what the Jews' "current experience" was. You said doing so was unacceptable. Why do you get a pass on it?| I fully admit I could be wrong about what the ancient Hebrews believed in relation to flat earth theory, but the evidence provided to state that they did believe in flat earth is only thus far presumption. |
As is your presumption that chuwg could mean sphere as much as circle. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 10:07:46 [Permalink]
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Dave said "Provide evidence that the "sphere" usage is anywhere close to as common as the "circle" usage."
As both definitions are used the quantity of usage does not tell us what the word means here. The point is that it is undetermined.
Isiah could be literary imaging, never said it was not.
Historical evidence provides us with an account of mankind thousands of years ago. Do you believe that the jews experience taught them that there was a mountain in Judea that could see all the nations of the world. Do you have any evidence that the jews would believe such a mountain existed in Judea; just they could not see it?
The point is there is doubt as to whether the bible writers believed in a flat earth.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 14:37:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The point is there is doubt as to whether the bible writers believed in a flat earth. |
Of course there is. There will always be doubt.
However, not all options are equally likely, Jerome. The weight of the evidence points to them believing in a flat earth, not just because of a few bible verses, but because of the culture that existed during the time when they were written. We have no more reason to suspect that the bible-writers were aware of a spherical earth anymore than they were aware of atoms, germs, or nuclear fusion. It just wasn't discovered by them, nor is a round earth especially intuitive.
If you are going to argue that they in fact were in possession of this special knowledge of a spherical earth not held by their immediate contempory neighbors, then from whence did this knowledge spring? Please support any response with facts.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/27/2007 14:40:37 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 15:08:33 [Permalink]
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As a side note, just as everyone begins as an athesist, everyone starts as a flat-earther and a geocentrist. It's the common-sense explanation for what we see. It requires some fairly sophisticated scientific reasoning to see the world as it really is. I remember my father explaining the spherical earth to me. Though I believed this revelation based upon his authority as my Dad, I remember thinking it just didn't "feel" right. It's a case of common sense conflicting with science.
The early ancient Hebrews were far from advanced, even compared to their pre-scientific neighbors. At a time when the most advanced civilizations of the region assumed a flat, geocentric earth, the Jews were nomadic shepherds and hunter-gatherers, culturally far behind the settled peoples of the Middle East. Many of their cultural traditions were borrowed from the high cultures of the area (the laws of the Ten Commandments echo the Code of Hammurabi in Reader's Digest form, simplified for illiterates with God added in). They fought genocidal wars just to establish themselves as a civilized people.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 16:17:26 [Permalink]
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The Earth's circumference was first determined around 240 BC by Eratosthenes. Eratosthenes knew that in Syene (now Aswan), in Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
As far as we know currently.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 21:49:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The Earth's circumference was first determined around 240 BC by Eratosthenes. Eratosthenes knew that in Syene (now Aswan), in Egypt. |
And Isaiah was written some 600 years before then, by someone in a much more nomadic community than Eratosthenes' Alexandria. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 04:37:15 [Permalink]
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| For what it's worth here's a Christian response to "The Flat-Earth Bible" page that H. Humbert linked to. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 04:56:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
How about Ponchos Pilate?
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You mean doing this:
While wearing this?
Sorry, that was just too good to pass up.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 04:59:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME (bolding mine)
You all have no idea; only assumption, whether I believe that any, all, or none of the bible. Without searching the meanings of the Hebrew words you have made proclamations without fact .... This does not seem to be the case as none has even looked up the word we are talking about; only assuming it is what you want to believe it to be. |
I smell a (hypocritical) wumpus!
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 08:03:47 [Permalink]
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JohnOAS, I did look up the word and posted the definitions; no one refuted the definitions. Mostly name calling, much like "(hypocritical) wumpus".
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 08:05:00 [Permalink]
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JohnOAS, I did enjoy the picture joke. Thanks ,haa haa.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 12:32:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
JohnOAS, I did look up the word and posted the definitions; no one refuted the definitions. |
Nobody needs to refute your contention, you need to support it. You haven't, you've only made bald assertions without supporting evidence. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 13:19:01 [Permalink]
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What I find most hilarious is that we are having this discussion at all. Whatever Jerome's religious beliefs, he has seized upon the peculiar, and dishonest, argument that modern biblical literalists use: Claiming the Bible says the earth is a sphere.
Biblical literalists spent centuries trying to convince people that the Bible's unmoving, flat earth reflected reality. It was only when basic scientific knowledge became pervasive that they did this acrobatic flip-flop, and now claim the Bible never said such a thing!
If you can't make reality match your holy book, then claim the holy books matches reality.
In 20 years or less, will the same fundies be claiming the inerrant Bible never said God created the universe in six days, 6,000 years ago?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/28/2007 13:19:38 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 19:49:04 [Permalink]
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HalfMooner---"Claiming the Bible says the earth is a sphere."
I am not claiming that the bible states that the earth is a sphere; I am claiming is in doubt what the bible writers believed about the earth being flat or round. The claims of religious leaders after the bible writers is not relevant to the question.
Dave---Everyone seems to agree about the definitions of the word in question. What evidence would you like to support your contention that you agree with the definitions I provided?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 05:34:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave said "Provide evidence that the "sphere" usage is anywhere close to as common as the "circle" usage."
As both definitions are used the quantity of usage does not tell us what the word means here. The point is that it is undetermined.
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Given that we can't tell from the immediate context which definition should be used, we have to fall back on broader context within the Bible (which indicate "circle"), and that the circle-usage of the word is statistically more common. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Flat earth
