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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2007 : 22:21:34
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Here is some scary stuff.
When Fakery Turns Fatal
From the article:
WUDI, China — They might be called China's renegade businessmen, small entrepreneurs who are experts at counterfeiting and willing to go to extraordinary lengths to make a profit. But just how far out of the Chinese mainstream are they?
Here in Wudi in eastern China, a few companies tried to save money by slipping the industrial chemical melamine into pet food ingredients as a cheap protein enhancer, helping incite one of the largest pet food recalls ever.
In Taixing, a city far to the south, a small business cheated the system by substituting a cheap toxic chemical for pharmaceutical-grade syrup, leading to a mass poisoning in Panama. And in the eastern province of Anhui, a group of entrepreneurs concocted a fake baby-milk formula that eventually killed dozens of rural children.
The incidents are the latest indications that cutting corners or producing fake goods is not just a legacy of China's initial rush toward the free market three decades ago but still woven into the fabric of the nation's thriving industrial economy. It is driven by entrepreneurs who are taking advantage of a weak legal system, lax regulations and a business culture where bribery and corruption are rampant.
“This is cut-throat market capitalism,” said Wenran Jiang, a specialist in China who teaches at the University of Alberta. “But the question has to be asked: is this uniquely Chinese or is there simply a lack of regulation in the market?” |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2007 : 22:33:21 [Permalink]
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I would call for severe punishment anytime someone is cheated or harmed. Responsibility is at the feet of those that do wrong.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 23:25:32 [Permalink]
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....
Or, we could take this as a lesson that an unregulated free market is a bad idea.
What is better? Prevent harm, or punish those who do the harm?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 00:02:54 [Permalink]
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Dude, it seems that Jerome is of the opinion that if state intervention doesn't prevent 100% of the problems, then it may as well not intervene at all.
He seems to reject the idea that preventing 90% of the probable harm is socially better than preveting 0% of it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 04:02:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Here is some scary stuff.
When Fakery Turns Fatal
From the article:
[snip]
“This is cut-throat market capitalism,” said Wenran Jiang, a specialist in China who teaches at the University of Alberta. “But the question has to be asked: is this uniquely Chinese or is there simply a lack of regulation in the market?” |
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I don't know if it's "unique" to China, but I'd say that they have to be the main culprit based on the news reports I've heard over the last few months.
I think this shows how important business regulation is. I disagree completely with certain segments of the political spectrum that argue for less regulation. The China example demonstrates how the market alone fails to act properly as a regulator. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 05:02:23 [Permalink]
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I still have most of a tube of "Dawn Mist" Chinese toothpaste, given to me free when I was in a rehab hospital after my stroke. It tasted kinda funny, so I only used it one time, and rinsed my mouth out carefully afterward. At that time, I knew nothing of the industrial impurities added in China, but even then, "China" and "toothpaste" didn't seem to go well in the same sentence. Now we know they add antifreeze to some toothpastes, as a cheap sweetener. Glad I survived.
I check all dog food now to make sure none of it contains wheat gluten, as that was the ingredient to which the melamine was added. I also refrain from chewing on my melamine dishes.
Strange, isn't it, that the most dangerously free-wheeling capitalism on earth is in a country ruled by a Communist Party?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/05/2007 05:10:29 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:08:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I would call for severe punishment anytime someone is cheated or harmed. Responsibility is at the feet of those that do wrong.
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And what about those cutting corners with something that doesn't make the end user sick? The end user is still not getting what they think they paid for. It's still fraud. The only way to stop that is to set uniform standards and oversight. You know…regulation. What is obvious is that a free market will not self regulate what goes into a product unless profits are at stake. And even then, only as much as is necessary to protect the bottom line, which means inferior products that make fast money because they are sold for less than much more worthy products.
Punishment for wrong doers is all well and good but consumer protection must to start before bogus products are brought to market.
And Jerome, you benefit by regulation every time you buy something. You shop with at least some confidence that what you are buying is what it claims to be on the package. Would you be happier if you had to roll the dice every time you made a purchase in with the confidence that a completely free market is motivated to look after your interests?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:31:12 [Permalink]
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In the dog food situation, regulations did not prevent the problems and harm. The market stopped buying the products that caused harm. Now government should intervene and punish those that caused harm. When governments "regulate" markets, favored business gain advantage.
Fraud should be punished, harm should be punished. Government intervention in markets does not; as shown by theses examples, prevent either fraud or harm. Regulation of markets allows favored business to be exempt from fraud and harm with the backing of government.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 08:24:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
In the dog food situation, regulations did not prevent the problems and harm. The market stopped buying the products that caused harm. Now government should intervene and punish those that caused harm. When governments "regulate" markets, favored business gain advantage.
Fraud should be punished, harm should be punished. Government intervention in markets does not; as shown by theses examples, prevent either fraud or harm. Regulation of markets allows favored business to be exempt from fraud and harm with the backing of government. |
You're crazy. Of course regulations prevent fraud and harm. It's obviously not 100% effective, but you can't possibly think we'd be better without and FDA than with one!
I'm not sure what you mean by "favored business gain advantage" regarding regulation. When the FDA, for instance, says that a certain food-- say soft drinks, for instance-- can't contain, say, gasoline, then all soft drink makers have to follow the rules. No one gains an advantage. And if one soft drink maker manages to sell their gasoline soft drink to unsuspecting customers, it's because of a lack of enforcement and not because of the regulation per se. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 08:54:52 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Fraud should be punished, harm should be punished. Government intervention in markets does not; as shown by theses examples, prevent either fraud or harm. Regulation of markets allows favored business to be exempt from fraud and harm with the backing of government. |
Bullshit!
That these things made it though means we need to be even more vigilant about products, especially those that come from countries that have lax standards.
By and large, you can buy with confidence most of the time because of the regulations that we have. Your crazy if you actually think that because sometimes the system fails, the system is a failure. How would you like to have to worry about all the products you buy?
Guess what? The regulations that are in place in this country were put there because of major abuses by manufacturers in this country. It wasn't like one day some politicians woke up and said, even though the manufacturing end is pretty much running good and delivering safe products, food items and meds, lets have a set of standards and regulations for the fun of it. Why would that even occur to them if there weren't a problem? Some things are worth paying for.
And what would be the acceptable death rate while we wait for the market to force manufacturers to set reasonable standards for themselves? And what precedent can you point to, to demonstrate that it will ever happen?
Regulations were not created in a void.
See, this is the kind of libertarian crap that makes me wonder if they are just balls to the wall crazy. Of course, not all of them are as nuts as you Jerome. You hopefully represent in your lunacy the more radical fringe of their ideology…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 11:03:13 [Permalink]
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I'd say that there probably aren't that many libertarians out there that want a totally unregulated free market. The obvious flaws in such a system make it readily apparent that it would be a total disaster to implement.
There has to be regulation in order to enforce fair trade practices and product safety. I think we can all agree, libertarians and liberals, that things like monopolies are bad for the economy. I think most can also agree that some safety standards must come from an outside regulatory source, otherwise no safety standards will exist.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 11:21:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Fraud should be punished, harm should be punished. |
Except you think that because they can't be 100% prevented, we should just throw in the towel and stop all regulation. The problem is that even adding all the money we use to regulate to the current judiciary budget won't be nearly enough to cope with all the lawsuits such a system would generate. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 12:51:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
In the dog food situation, regulations did not prevent the problems and harm. The market stopped buying the products that caused harm. Now government should intervene and punish those that caused harm. When governments "regulate" markets, favored business gain advantage.
Fraud should be punished, harm should be punished. Government intervention in markets does not; as shown by theses examples, prevent either fraud or harm. Regulation of markets allows favored business to be exempt from fraud and harm with the backing of government.
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Bullshit! "In the dog food situation," there are no Federal regulations, no inspections or enforced standards. Which is precisely the problem. And not only is animal protection lacking, under Bush's pro-corporate regime, the hundred-year-old human food inspection system in the US is being degraded by cutting back on inspectors and inspections!
Jerome, you are either seriously ignorant, or seriously nuts. No, I take that back: It's not an either/or proposition.
Read this link about Upton Sinclair's novel, The Jungle, for a little background, something that should be taught about in every high school Biology, Civics, US History, and Home Ec class.
Sinclair's best-selling novel about corruption and filthy conditions in meat-packing plants, along with Teddy Roosevelt's later help, killed economic Libertarianism over a century ago. It's just too dumb, and/or crazy, to know it's dead yet.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/05/2007 12:54:46 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 14:16:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Bullshit! "In the dog food situation," there are no Federal regulations, no inspections or enforced standards. Which is precisely the problem. And not only is animal protection lacking, under Bush's pro-corporate regime, the hundred-year-old human food inspection system in the US is being degraded by cutting back on inspectors and inspections! |
Actually, Mooner, there does appear to be some regulation of pet foods, but from what I gather it's almost worthless:| There is no requirement that pet food products have premarket approval by the FDA. However, FDA ensures that the ingredients used in pet food are safe and have an appropriate function in the pet food. Many ingredients such as meat, poultry, grains, and their byproducts are considered safe “foods” and do not require premarket approval. Other substances such as mineral and vitamin sources, colorings, flavorings, and preservatives may be generally recognized as safe (GRAS) or must have approval as food additives. (See Title 21 CFR, Parts 73, 74, 81, 573 and 582). |
So it sounds like they don't do much. And this, coupled with your aforementioned observation about a real lack of interest on the part of the current administration to support things like inspection and enforcement, no doubt contributed to the recent problem in pet foods. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 18:25:56 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the correction, Cune. I should have written, "no effective Federal regulations."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 18:52:15 [Permalink]
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Do governments regulate the energy industry? How did that work out for California?
Regulation caused blackouts in case you forgot.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Fakery Turns Fatal: China...
