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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:39:59
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Sorry if this has already been discussed but has anyone checked this out?
And speaking of choices, Holsinger and his wife:
...founded Hope Springs Community Church in a warehouse at 1109 Versailles Road. Calhoun called it a socially diverse congregation with a "very vital recovery ministry." It serves the homeless and those with addictions to drugs, alcohol and sex; and it has a Spanish-language Hispanic congregation with its own pastor. [...]
Hope Springs also ministers to people who no longer wish to be gay or lesbian, Calhoun said.
"We see that as an issue not of orientation but of lifestyle," he said. "We have people who seek to walk out of that lifestyle."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Edited by - Gorgo on 06/06/2007 11:47:46
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:05:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Sorry if this has already been discussed but has anyone checked this out?
And speaking of choices, Holsinger and his wife:
...founded Hope Springs Community Church in a warehouse at 1109 Versailles Road. Calhoun called it a socially diverse congregation with a "very vital recovery ministry." It serves the homeless and those with addictions to drugs, alcohol and sex; and it has a Spanish-language Hispanic congregation with its own pastor. [...]
Hope Springs also ministers to people who no longer wish to be gay or lesbian, Calhoun said.
"We see that as an issue not of orientation but of lifestyle," he said. "We have people who seek to walk out of that lifestyle."
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I don't know if people are born gay or choose that lifestyle but what if there are people that are gay and do not want to be. Shouldn't there be people to help them out? There are people that are male and want to be female and there are people to help them do so. However I am not sure these are the right people. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:38:43 [Permalink]
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Right people? I think that's the key. I don't know this person's methods, but if they're doing it via a church, that means that they expect God to do things. If they expect God to cure addictions and "cure" homosexuality, then I would wonder whether or not they're in touch with reality.
I have heard that cognitive psychology actually has some solid evidence for their treatment of addictions, but I haven't heard of anyone who has any solid evidence for anyone's homosexuality cures or any solid evidence that God comes out of the sky and cures anything.
I could be wrong on that, but I just haven't heard of it.
If someone wants not to be gay, it may be because society makes it a bad thing to be gay. If that is correct, then these people are making matters worse by promoting the idea that it's some kind of disease. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:30:13 [Permalink]
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| I'm not sure anyone who thinks being gay is a lifestyle is on the right track. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:53:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
If someone wants not to be gay, it may be because society makes it a bad thing to be gay. If that is correct, then these people are making matters worse by promoting the idea that it's some kind of disease.
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As most gay people I have heard they say that they were born gay and did not choose to be gay. I accept this as truth. However what if someone thinks they were born "in a gay body" and are actually not gay. Just as a trangendered person may say that they are a women born in a mans body. Is it OK to help them? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 11:00:35 [Permalink]
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Who is going to "help" them? With what? I think a psychologist can help them accept themselves. I think a psychologist can help them somewhat with unwanted behaviors. But, what you seem to be saying is that someone can make up a disease and the cure by magic somehow.
What is the science here behind "the cure?" |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:01:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Who is going to "help" them? With what? I think a psychologist can help them accept themselves. I think a psychologist can help them somewhat with unwanted behaviors. But, what you seem to be saying is that someone can make up a disease and the cure by magic somehow.
What is the science here behind "the cure?"
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Why do many say that if someone is gay they must "accept themselves". What if they do not want to be gay? There is no cure because homosexuality is not a disease. If someone wants to change their behavior maybe certain groups or psychologists can help them. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:47:54 [Permalink]
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If a gay person wants to try and change their desires, I say "fine knock yourself out". It is their choice. The problem I see, is that it's the bigotry against homosexuality that makes them to want to change in the first place; and that is sad.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:52:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
I'm not sure anyone who thinks being gay is a lifestyle is on the right track.
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I suspect the are a relatively small minority of people leading outwardly gay lives who are actually bisexual, and are capable of deliberately changing their behavior and becoming functionally straight. (This works the other way around, too, with a few bisexuals who are functionally heterosexual going completely gay.) Testimonies of such rare people will be pointed to by the religious "gay curers" as examples of their programs' effectiveness.
But, just as most heterosexuals have no choice about their heterosexuality, most gays cannot just decide to become straight. It just won't work in the long run, with or without the putative help of God Almighty.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:43:52 [Permalink]
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Why do many say that if someone is gay they must "accept themselves". What if they do not want to be gay? There is no cure because homosexuality is not a disease. If someone wants to change their behavior maybe certain groups or psychologists can help them.
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Sure, they can change their behavior. So can you. That has nothing to do with not being gay from what little I understand about the situation. You can be celibate and still be a heterosexual. Again, I could be wrong. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/08/2007 11:08:56 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 16:50:57 [Permalink]
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I want to comment in this thread to a quote made by Robb in the locked gay marriage thread. It still fits…
Robb:
There is a sect of people out there that think homosexuality is wrong (including me)because God says so. The list above I think comes from people that believe God or are bigoted but are pressured by society to have a better reason, so these reasons are created and as you have done, refuted them. I generally agree with your refutations on all of these secular reasons.
I do not want a law prohibiting homosexuals to get married, I will still invite them to church, befriend them, help them if needed etc. but I will not be bullied into saying that I think it is moral or right lifestyle. I will not say I think it is OK for same sex married couples to have children and I will not teach this to my children. Is it OK to have this belief? Is this tolerant or intolerant? |
Of all the cruelties we do to those who share the short ride on this planet with us, one of the worst is to suggest to people that they should not be comfortable in their own skin. Bigotry can come along as hate or with the loving confidence that we are doing some kind of a good thing by being tolerant and understanding.
How about just accepting people as they are? No strings attached? (Well, unless they say or do something stupid or criminal.)
You know what Robb? That's one of my main complaints with religion and the bible in particular. It teaches the most immoral kind of morality. How can you love your neighbor while you are busy being tolerant of how your neighbor lives? Sure, you can pat yourself on the back because you are not intolerant, and that's a good thing. But don't kid yourself in the process.
As long as you think gayness has anything to do with morality, the judgment monkey is on your back. And that judgment runs the gamut from you to a Fred Phelps. And I'm sorry to say this but the bottom line is the same.
I don't know what it means to be a Christian because I have never been one. But I know a judgment when I see one, even when it comes with a smile and a glad hand.
I suppose the good news is that I am rather tolerant of Christians like you, Robb.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 06:26:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Of all the cruelties we do to those who share the short ride on this planet with us, one of the worst is to suggest to people that they should not be comfortable in their own skin. Bigotry can come along as hate or with the loving confidence that we are doing some kind of a good thing by being tolerant and understanding.
How about just accepting people as they are? No strings attached? (Well, unless they say or do something stupid or criminal.) |
Why does disagreeing with someone's lifestyle make someone a bigot? I don't think a homosexual should be comfortable in their own skin just as I should not be comfortable in my own skin if I tell a lie or cheat on my wife. Homosexual behavior is not a greater sin than lying or cheating it is sin and I believe that it is wrong. In fact the Bible teaches that if I do not love my neighbor (including homosexuals) then I am committing a greater sin than they are by engaging in homosexual behavior.
| You know what Robb? That's one of my main complaints with religion and the bible in particular. It teaches the most immoral kind of morality. How can you love your neighbor while you are busy being tolerant of how your neighbor lives? Sure, you can pat yourself on the back because you are not intolerant, and that's a good thing. But don't kid yourself in the process. |
Don't you do this as well? I have friends that I do not agree with on many things such as TV habits, politics, how they educate children, what they eat, what they spend their money on etc. They are still my friends and I love them even though I disagree on how they live in some aspects of their lives. Why does this change for you when it comes to homosexuality?
As long as you think gayness has anything to do with morality, the judgment monkey is on your back. And that judgment runs the gamut from you to a Fred Phelps. And I'm sorry to say this but the bottom line is the same.
I don't know what it means to be a Christian because I have never been one. But I know a judgment when I see one, even when it comes with a smile and a glad hand. |
What do you mean by the judgment monkey? The Bible teaches what to and what not to judge. We should not judge other Christians on practices that are not clearly addressed in the Bible, We should not judge people on outward appearances and not judge others on their Christian service. The Bible does teach that Christians are to judge disputes between members of a local body of believers so it can be settled, to judge unrepentant sin of its members, to judge teachings of teachers and preachers in the church, judge to see if elders meet the requirements stated in the Bible, judge ourselves to see if we are in the faith and judge sin for the intent of getting the sinner to repent.
The judgement of Matthew 7 comes from judging people in accordance with your own standards or to judge people for the intent of condemning them. The Bible is clear that we are all equally sinful and treacherous. I would hope that if I am doing something consistently against Gods word with an unrepentant attitude that someone would judge that and cause me to repent.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 07:32:05 [Permalink]
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What I find interesting is that the only reason Robb thinks homosexuality is wrong is because of the Bible. He agrees that none of the "secular" arguments against it are valid. He can't, using logic and reason, find anything to fault homosexuality with. Yet he KNOWS its wrong. Because of the Bible, and only because.
It seems so arbitrary.
The morality of God should be perfect. As such we should, with study, be able to understand the logic and reason behind it. If the admonition against homosexuality can not be understood in such a way (and I think the religious have had plenty of time to try) then it is arbitrary and imperfect.
I write this because I'm getting tired of being told by Christians that any morality not based on the Bible is arbitrary, while Biblical morality is not. And if you ask them what makes "God's" morals non-arbitrary, they will ultimately fall back on this gem: "He made the universe so he gets to write the rules". That sounds to me like the very definition of arbitrary. To me it makes God into nothing more than a celestial extortionist: "Do what I says and nobody gets hurt". |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 09:06:54 [Permalink]
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Me:
Of all the cruelties we do to those who share the short ride on this planet with us, one of the worst is to suggest to people that they should not be comfortable in their own skin. Bigotry can come along as hate or with the loving confidence that we are doing some kind of a good thing by being tolerant and understanding.
How about just accepting people as they are? No strings attached? (Well, unless they say or do something stupid or criminal.) |
Robb:
Why does disagreeing with someone's lifestyle make someone a bigot? I don't think a homosexual should be comfortable in their own skin just as I should not be comfortable in my own skin if I tell a lie or cheat on my wife. Homosexual behavior is not a greater sin than lying or cheating it is sin and I believe that it is wrong. In fact the Bible teaches that if I do not love my neighbor (including homosexuals) then I am committing a greater sin than they are by engaging in homosexual behavior. |
Lying or cheating are choices a person makes. Call it a sin because the bible says so or not, you won't find many people with any sense of morality agreeing that those acts are a good thing. And that brings us to the heart of the problem. Study after study concludes that gayness is not a choice. How can you be a sinner if you had no choice in the matter? When did you choose to be heterosexual Robb? Do you think it's different for gays?
The book is the problem. And again, like some other things in there it assumes choice where there is none and then labels that non-choice as a sin. Given when it was written that may have seemed reasonable, but since then, like other things in the bible, science has shown that notion to be incorrect. What do you do when the reality of things is in conflict with the words in the bible? Some choose to pass judgment on those who had not the choice that the liar and the thief had. To my thinking, once again, that is the most immoral kind of morality.
If you choose to be tolerant of the liar and the thief, or at least love them even though they did something bad, that might actually qualify as love. Love of your fellow man in spite of the wrong they have done actually shows a willingness to forgive. But what has the gay person done by being born gay that requires forgiveness? What was their sin? How was their sin, if sin it is, not really Gods sin? Hell, he made them that way if you choose to believe that sort of thing.
If you remove choice, and it has been removed based on what we know now, then a judgment based solely on gayness is immoral. It's bigoted. It is no different then judging a person by the color of his skin.
As I said, I am not a Christian. My concept of tolerance and love is not tied to a book of rules. But even if it were, being who I am I would probably question a rule as capricious as that one…
Me:
I suppose the good news is that I am rather tolerant of Christians like you, Robb. |
Robb:
Then does that make you a bigot as well? |
No. That was a joke…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 11:27:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Lying or cheating are choices a person makes. Call it a sin because the bible says so or not, you won't find many people with any sense of morality agreeing that those acts are a good thing. And that brings us to the heart of the problem. Study after study concludes that gayness is not a choice. How can you be a sinner if you had no choice in the matter? When did you choose to be heterosexual Robb? Do you think it's different for gays? |
No, I take the word of most homosexuals that they did not choose to be gay.
| If you choose to be tolerant of the liar and the thief, or at least love them even though they did something bad, that might actually qualify as love. Love of your fellow man in spite of the wrong they have done actually shows a willingness to forgive. But what has the gay person done by being born gay that requires forgiveness? What was their sin? How was their sin, if sin it is, not really Gods sin? Hell, he made them that way if you choose to believe that sort of thing. |
It is not a sin to be born with the tendency to want same sex intimate relationships. It is a sin if you continue to cultivate that desire and thoughts and act on it. Just as it is a sin to look lustfully at a woman that is not my wife. I have the temptation to lie each day, to look at women lustfully each day. If I cultivate the thought and convince myself that it is OK and act upon it I have sinned. I am not saying it is easy or fair but it is what the Bible teaches. If I thought anything else I would be a hypocrite.
| If you remove choice, and it has been removed based on what we know now, then a judgment based solely on gayness is immoral. It's bigoted. It is no different then judging a person by the color of his skin. |
We do not have a choice in what tempts us, we do have a choice in how we react to the temptations.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 17:05:34 [Permalink]
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Robb:
It is not a sin to be born with the tendency to want same sex intimate relationships. It is a sin if you continue to cultivate that desire and thoughts and act on it. Just as it is a sin to look lustfully at a woman that is not my wife. I have the temptation to lie each day, to look at women lustfully each day. If I cultivate the thought and convince myself that it is OK and act upon it I have sinned. I am not saying it is easy or fair but it is what the Bible teaches. If I thought anything else I would be a hypocrite. |
Robb:
We do not have a choice in what tempts us, we do have a choice in how we react to the temptations. |
You, looking at other woman but not acting on it says nothing about what your asking of gays. A gay man in a monogamous relationship lusting after other men might be a fair comparison. What you are doing is to suggest that they deny who they are. Or to recognize who they are, and not be who they are. Again, that's just cruel.
Did you have to “cultivate” your heterosexualness?
I do not want you to be a hypocrite Robb. What I would like is for you to see how your rulebook promotes bigotry. Maybe you can go there and maybe you can't. I dunno.
I have said what I wanted to say about religion and gayness, and so have you. A protracted debate on the subject will probably not be particularly productive.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Surgeon General cures gays?
