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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2007 : 12:40:35 [Permalink]
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Though I understand that we have before, and likely will again, we gladly do not make it a habit.
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I wonder if that's true. I've heard people say that the death penalty exists because people have a "sense of justice."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 12:43:13 [Permalink]
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| Dude to sympathize with how Robb feels towards flag burning. |
That's the part I understood, and did not see why "feeling" is germane to the discussion. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/12/2007 02:35:59 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 12:48:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
But let's not forget the reaction that Sinead O'Connor got by ripping up photos of the Pope.
For many people, a symbol is in many ways identical to the thing it symbolizes. Destroying a photo of the Pope is a metaphor for a desire to see the elimination of the Roman Catholic Church.
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A similar thing happened when an evangelical minister over here started smashing images of Catholic saints. He got a huge backlash because of that. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 14:15:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
But let's not forget the reaction that Sinead O'Connor got by ripping up photos of the Pope.
For many people, a symbol is in many ways identical to the thing it symbolizes. Destroying a photo of the Pope is a metaphor for a desire to see the elimination of the Roman Catholic Church.
. . .
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On the other hand, blowing up a Protestant church to spite Catholicism would be a simile, and as such, a much less effective statement. But people are always confusing similes and metaphors.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 15:11:56 [Permalink]
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B10 said:
Dude, how would you feel if you saw somebody defacing a photograph of someone important to you; say, your mother. Can you now understand and accept the revulsion felt by Robb when he witnesses somebody defacing the US flag?
Though it is not an exact analogy, it is the same in principle. |
My mother is not a symbol that represents (among other things) the right to free speech and free self expression. So you don't really have an analogy. If my mother were those things, then I'd have no problems with anyone burning her picture.
So no, I do not accept Robb's being pissed off when he sees a flag being desecrated. His reaction stems from an infantile (and dangerous) point of view that places more value on symbols than the things those symbols represent. This particular mindset is unworthy of respect or consideration. It is part of the same phenomenon that allowed Nazi Germany to incinerate a few million people. A little ultra-nationalism goes a long way...
I do not care what kind of personal feelings anyone has for our flag (or any other symbol of our country). If they are unable to place the actual values the symbol represents ahead of the symbol itself, then they are committing a deeply unethical act.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 17:28:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
My mother is not a symbol that represents (among other things) the right to free speech and free self expression. So you don't really have an analogy. If my mother were those things, then I'd have no problems with anyone burning her picture. |
A picture of your mother is, however, a symbol of her and all that she represents to you. Similarly, a flag is a symbol of the country and all it represents. That is as far as my analogy was intended to extend. Admittedly, it is not a perfect analogy, but what is?| So no, I do not accept Robb's being pissed off when he sees a flag being desecrated. His reaction stems from an infantile (and dangerous) point of view that places more value on symbols than the things those symbols represent. This particular mindset is unworthy of respect or consideration. |
Interesting. Perhaps we should, in another thread, discuss why you feel it is necessary to invalidate another person's feelings about a sensitive issue; especially when he states that it would be wrong to outlaw the action he finds repugnant. | It is part of the same phenomenon that allowed Nazi Germany to incinerate a few million people. A little ultra-nationalism goes a long way... |
I have only one answer to this....| I do not care what kind of personal feelings anyone has for our flag (or any other symbol of our country). If they are unable to place the actual values the symbol represents ahead of the symbol itself, then they are committing a deeply unethical act. |
Let's clarify this, please: are you saying it is unethical to feel upset when somebody desecrates the symbol of something you love? Robb did not claim flag-burning should be illegal; quite the opposite, in fact. He did not say he would beat somebody up or even speak harshly to somebody burning a flag. He only said that it makes his "blood boil." It angers him. When did feelings, rather than actions, come into ethics?
Edited to fix link -- B10 |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 06/11/2007 21:44:55 |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 18:46:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
It is part of the same phenomenon that allowed Nazi Germany to incinerate a few million people. A little ultra-nationalism goes a long way...
Originally posted by Boron10
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I have only one answer to this.... |
I think you meant Godwin's Law. (Gotta lose the apostrophe!)
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 20:19:03 [Permalink]
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Ah, the good old "Reductio ad Hitlerum".
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 21:26:03 [Permalink]
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| Flag burning. I really want to ask people why they burn the flag, if they are protesting the current government, what the flag stands for, or what they think the flag stands for. You burn them when they become too damaged to fly. You fold them and put them in boxes when someone dies. I sometimes wonder if it's just for the shock value of 'desecrating' this thing that means a lot to a lot of people? If then, allowing the burning of the flag to affect you says more about you than the person burning the flag. No offense intended Robb, I can understand your feelings about the subject. Dude, you, B10, and I all took the same or similar oath when entering the military. I am going to operate on the presumption that you understand upholding and defending the constitution means the ideals of the constitution, not the piece of paper upon which it is written. Robb, that is where some of us come from. We have learned/been taught that it is the ideal, not the thing that is important. And after all, the flag is just a thing. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2007 : 21:47:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JohnOAS
Originally posted by Dude
It is part of the same phenomenon that allowed Nazi Germany to incinerate a few million people. A little ultra-nationalism goes a long way...
Originally posted by Boron10
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I have only one answer to this.... |
I think you meant Godwin's Law. (Gotta lose the apostrophe!) |
You're exactly right, thank you!
Fixed. |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 06/11/2007 21:47:46 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 23:03:29 [Permalink]
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b10 said:
| Let's clarify this, please: are you saying it is unethical to feel upset when somebody desecrates the symbol of something you love? Robb did not claim flag-burning should be illegal; quite the opposite, in fact. He did not say he would beat somebody up or even speak harshly to somebody burning a flag. He only said that it makes his "blood boil." It angers him. |
It indicates an ultra-nationalist mindset.
| I have only one answer to this.... |
Piss off then? The comparison is appropriate. There are significant dangers to extreme nationalism.
Robb is, of course, free to "feel" any way he wants. That doesn't change the fact that he is wrong. Ultra-nationalism is unethical, those who express this kind of extremist thinking are behaving in an unethical manner.
half said:
Ah, the good old "Reductio ad Hitlerum".
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If you feel the comparison is somehow inappropriate, then go ahead and elaborate. Otherwise feel free to join B10 in "pissing off".
This kind of nationalist thinking is a legitimate danger. States have passed LAWS that prohibit burning or desecration of US flags. This isn't some fucking joke.
The best, and most obvious, example of extremist nationalism we currently have is Nazi Germany. I guess I could just as easily use N. Korea. Or maybe I could have used the example of extremist theocracies where it is a capital crime to burn their flag. Robb's "boiling blood" seems more likely to stem from ultra-nationalist thinking though, based on his posting history here on SFN. The Nazis are a legitimate example of extreme nationalism and the problems with that mindset.
b10 said:
When did feelings, rather than actions, come into ethics?
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If you like I can direct you to a reference for a simple explanation of ethics. Its all about good/bad and right/wrong. Actions are certainly subject to ethical judgements, but so are emotions and feelings. Unless you want to argue that it is ok to have a desire to hurt people, even if you don't do it. You do know we lock people up for having feelings like that, yes? Because those feelings are wrong, unethical.
| A picture of your mother is, however, a symbol of her and all that she represents to you. Similarly, a flag is a symbol of the country and all it represents. That is as far as my analogy was intended to extend. Admittedly, it is not a perfect analogy, but what is? |
Now you are being ridiculous. Again, my mother is not a symbol that represents freedom of speech and self expression. And, again, if she were, then I'd cheer anyone who wanted to burn her picture. Again, you have no analogy, at all. Why you persist in trying to force an analogy where none exists is interesting though. It is an indication of the weakness of your argument.
| Perhaps we should, in another thread, discuss why you feel it is necessary to invalidate another person's feelings about a sensitive issue |
Or perhaps we can dismiss this, and your condescending attitude, with a simple paragraph.
Robb is free to "feel" anything he wants to feel. It is wrong, unethical, to exhibit certain feelings. The reason, I think, Robb is angered by flag desecration is a nationalist sentiment. When a person places more value on a country's symbols than on the things those symbols represent, they are stepping into an ultra-nationalist mindset. Ultra-nationalism is unethical.
Of course, I could be mistaken about why Robb is angered by flag desecration. But there are a limited number of reasons why desecrating a flag would anger a person. Nationalism, carried to an unethical extent, seems the most plausible here. Maybe Robb will come back and explain it himself.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 06/11/2007 23:04:24 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2007 : 08:48:07 [Permalink]
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| Since Robb would not seek to make laws to prevent whatever speech he finds repugnant, which is at the heart and soul of understanding the importance of free speech and how it protects all of us, even when we don't agree with whatever sentiment is being expressed, I must go along with Boron on this. Robb understands what is most important. And that makes him a good citizen… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2007 : 12:37:49 [Permalink]
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YO: My gawd, let me just leave town and disconnect with this site for a few days, and someone's started a thread about the Kansas idiots who protest at soldier's funerals in the name of homophobia.
I must confess I am now IN the state where these assholes reside as I do some watching over an ailing parent in Wichita.
I sign off quickly only to say: despite the fact these people are idiots of the first order, I think even idiots have the right to step on The Flag if they want to, although it's clear what they demonstrate about proves they aren't wrapped too tight, but have the right to do so.
From The Wheat State, I remain: OY! |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 17:55:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
So no, I do not accept Robb's being pissed off when he sees a flag being desecrated. His reaction stems from an infantile (and dangerous) point of view that places more value on symbols than the things those symbols represent. This particular mindset is unworthy of respect or consideration. It is part of the same phenomenon that allowed Nazi Germany to incinerate a few million people. A little ultra-nationalism goes a long way... |
You got to be kidding me. You better find out where I live and arrest me before I kill 6 million people Wha ha ha!  |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Defending Phelps
